Players or Manager?

[Raziel]

It seems the current consensus is we have wrong team, wrong balance, crap players, etc. etc.

So lets put this on paper, do we really believe

- Dier = ****
- Kaboul = ****
- Vert = ****
- Vlad = ****
- Lennon = ****
- Townsend = ****
- Dembele = ****
- Paulinho = ****
- Capoue= ****
- Sandro = ****
- Holtby = ****
- Paulinho = ****
- Stambouli = ****
- Lamela = ****
- Soldado = ****
- Ade = ****

(consensus seems to be on this board that only Lloris/Bentaleb/Eriksen are good, with Kane/Mason probably getting a bye as well)

Poch = great manager

Is it me, or does that seem like the everyone in the world but me is crazy argument?

 

[harr1984]

I think you're half right, we have a good standard squad - they're not as bad as many on here make out.

At the same time I still think we have a good coach so that's where we will disagree....


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[billyiddo]

I think the squad, to use a loose term, is top 7 quality throughout (on paper) but has very little in it that, right now, is anything above that level. However i do think there are a few players who have the potential to step up to the next level.

I also think Pochettino is struggling to get the best out of the players in the short term, hopefully this is a case of him trying to get his ideas instilled in them now so in the long term we get better. I also think we're probably lacking a few of his types of players in key positions.

Another train of thought could be that with such a bloated squad he is looking to give them all their chance before deciding on who makes the cut.

 

[braineclipse]

It seems the current consensus is we have wrong team, wrong balance, crap players, etc. etc.

So lets put this on paper, do we really believe

- Dier = ****
- Kaboul = ****
- Vert = ****
- Vlad = ****
- Lennon = ****
- Townsend = ****
- Dembele = ****
- Paulinho = ****
- Capoue= ****
- Sandro = ****
- Holtby = ****
- Paulinho = ****
- Stambouli = ****
- Lamela = ****
- Soldado = ****
- Ade = ****

(consensus seems to be on this board that only Lloris/Bentaleb/Eriksen are good, with Kane/Mason probably getting a bye as well)

Poch = great manager

Is it me, or does that seem like the everyone in the world but me is crazy argument?

Who is this "we" that supposedly believes this?

You complained in the ratings thread about not being able to have a legitimate discussion. If you want a legitimate discussion do you really think this is the way to go about it?

 

[milo]

I think that it is a decent squad but samey, short on real quality and short on leaders. I think that Sherwood called it exactly right in this respect. I think both Sherwood and Poch promoting youth above establish international players backs this up.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Good squad. Good manager. But far too much disruption and turnover of personnel. We need to give the team time to grow together, rather than throwing all the pieces up in the air again

 

[Moby]

It seems the current consensus is we have wrong team, wrong balance, crap players, etc. etc.

So lets put this on paper, do we really believe

- Dier = ****
- Kaboul = ****
- Vert = ****
- Vlad = ****
- Lennon = ****
- Townsend = ****
- Dembele = ****
- Paulinho = ****
- Capoue= ****
- Sandro = ****
- Holtby = ****
- Paulinho = ****
- Stambouli = ****
- Lamela = ****
- Soldado = ****
- Ade = ****

(consensus seems to be on this board that only Lloris/Bentaleb/Eriksen are good, with Kane/Mason probably getting a bye as well)

Poch = great manager

Is it me, or does that seem like the everyone in the world but me is crazy argument?

I dont get it. Why is every player rated at exactly 4 stars?....

 

[NWND]

Well Sherwood showed the squad are capable of much better than the performances this season.

 

[Robspur12]

Well Sherwood showed the squad are capable of much better than the performances this season.

Really? Mate not getting at you because you're a great poster but I think that is a lazy argument. I don't think Verts defended better, Capoue was a better defensive midfielder? Soldado look any more likely to score? Paulinho any less invisible? Lennon look better? Remember I was a supporter of Sherwood. OK we had more width through our fullbacks but Walker has been injured most of the season. What we did better was put away our chances. Sherwood was able to get Ade playing well and that carried us through a lot of games. We have no such player this season and that has contributed a huge amount to why we have gone backwards in terms of results.

 

[DTA]

Really? Mate not getting at you because you're a great poster but I think that is a lazy argument. I don't think Verts defended better, Capoue was a better defensive midfielder? Soldado look any more likely to score? Paulinho any less invisible? Lennon look better? Remember I was a supporter of Sherwood. OK we had more width through our fullbacks but Walker has been injured most of the season. What we did better was put away our chances. Sherwood was able to get Ade playing well and that carried us through a lot of games. We have no such player this season and that has contributed a huge amount to why we have gone backwards in terms of results.

Even when Ade wasn't at his best, Sherwood still had the team creating chances and scoring. Ade done extremely well for a period but he was not prolific throughout the 6 months Sherwood had in charge.

 

[glasgowspur]

Well Sherwood showed the squad are capable of much better than the performances this season.

And that they can be a lot worse. We were just as bad at times under sherwood.
I don't now the answer but I suspect it isn't one thing.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[Robspur12]

Even when Ade wasn't at his best, Sherwood still had the team creating chances and scoring. Ade done extremely well for a period but he was not prolific throughout the 6 months Sherwood had in charge.

Mate I made this point in the Ade thread, the man scored 14 goals in 25 appearances that is prolific in my book. He saved our season.Now you can make the argument that Tim got those performances out of him and Poch has not, but he was a large part of our points haul under Tim.

 

[Rossi22]

Our remit has changed imo. We're now looking to clear the decks, stabilise and focus on bringing through the talented youth we have in preparation for the new stadium. I've accepted that the highs of 3-4 years ago won't be seen again for a while.

 

[milo]

This thread is going to get locked if it turns into another Redknapp v AVB v Sherwood v Poch thread.

The question here is whether our current performances are because of the manager or players. Let's keep it on topic and not have a repeat of other threads please.

 

[The Fatman]

I believe this season all the player are on trial, some will show they are capable to play mopos way the other will be sold over the next 3-4 transfer windows.

 

[Robspur12]

This thread is going to get locked if it turns into another Redknapp v AVB v Sherwood v Poch thread.

The question here is whether our current performances are because of the manager or players. Let's keep it on topic and not have a repeat of other threads please.

I think some discussion about Sherwood and AVB is inevitable given that they had the same set of players.

 

[milo]

I think some discussion about Sherwood and AVB is inevitable given that they had the same set of players.

Yeah, understood. I'm not trying to be a **** here but if it becomes a repeat of discussions in other threads then it will get locked or merged.

 

[Rossi22]

Our youth sides are stacked at every age group and Poch has shown to that he's willing to bring them through. Veljkovic, Onomah, Winks, Carter-Vickers, Walker-Peters, Yahaya, Azzaoui, Edwards, Harrison, Oakley-Booth, Tanganga, Bennetts, Sterling are just a few names of players who could make it into the first team in years to come, we'll no longer need to go out and spend millions on a player to fill a gap. It's time we started to think long term, that's our only chance of overhauling the big spenders.

 

[Robspur12]

Our youth sides are stacked at every age group and Poch has shown to that he's willing to bring them through. Veljkovic, Onomah, Winks, Carter-Vickers, Walker-Peters, Yahaya, Azzaoui, Edwards, Harrison, Oakley-Booth, Tanganga, Bennetts, Sterling are just a few names of players who could make it into the first team in years to come, we'll no longer need to go out and spend millions on a player to fill a gap. It's time we started to think long term, that's our only chance of overhauling the big spenders.

Mate the fans will never be patient enough to allow the youth to come through.

 

[Cochise]

Going by tonight's performance I'm not sure it's worth reading too much into things. Ade going back home for personal reasons has kind of left Poch with his hands tied in an area of the field where we lack quality. The pitch was aweful too.

If the question is whether the players listed are worth getting rid of, then I'd say:

- Dier = No. Just got here and hasn't played a game at CB, calm down.
- Kaboul = Looks spent so Yes.
- Vert = No. I think Sherwood has been the only one to call him ****. Looks much better this season.
- Vlad = Yes. Has never looked settled at CB.
- Lennon = No. Still worth keeping around, but he's never really progressed as a player.
- Townsend = Yes. Not top level at the moment. Injuries have curtailed his development, but he still shows poor decision making.
- Dembele = Yes. Dribbles past a player then passes sideways 9 out of 10 times. Listening to Ferdinand tonight, he sounds like a player who has no urgency to his game.
- Paulinho = Yes. Doesn't look like an EPL player. I was willing to give the guy time, but it's now been 18 months or so and I've seen a handful of good performances.
- Capoue= Yes. Immobile, ball gets lost between his feet and doesn't seem to know his position.
- Sandro = Yes. Injuries have done him in. Loved the beast but just look at how he's done at QPR so far.
- Holtby = No. It sounds as if he could've stayed but wouldn't have been first choice and made the decision to take the loan.
- Stambouli = No. The guy has been here all of 5 minutes, seems to be in and out of the matchday squad so may have injuries. Was MoTM the other week.
- Lamela = No. I'm becoming gradually frustrated by the guy, but he does show more promise than others. I'm still thinking that he needs this year to get used to things after spending most of last year injured.
- Soldado = No, but only for the time being. In the future I'd say we can get rid as the guy looks to be heading towards the Torres zone.
- Ade = Yes. His form is far too indifferent to be relied upon.

From what I can tell, Poch wants a team of players who can move the ball around both quickly and intelligently. Looking at that list, most of those players aren't suitable to that kind of game, although the first 11 does feature quite a few players who do. I have no doubt that he would love to have some more pace in the side, but our options there are limited to two out and out wingers who lack that natural goalscoring edge, so really my answer is the squad.

Baldini and the transfer committee ****ed up big time in the 2013 summer and now we need to sell 6-7 players just to bring the squad back to a manageable size and that's before reinvesting in the right kind of players.