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OMT ***Tottenham Hotspur vs Saudi Sportswashing Machine***

He was not one of the 'cheif offenders' at all. Seriously. I find the over-criticism of him bizarre. In fact, I find the plunge-to-black after yesterday really, really confusing. The polarization. The black and white. I get the impression that not slitting your wrists over yesterday makes you a happy clapper?

Who said that, and why are you picking up 'impressions' in that regard? Not slitting your wrists over yesterday makes you someone with a different viewpoint about disappointment, and I've personally never had a problem with that. Rounding on those that do, however...well, you know my views on that sh*te.

It was a shocking, gobbricke performance, and I have a few figures I think need to be looked at (a couple of seniors too) but again, do we trust this manager or do we not? Personally, he has earned my trust. We finished 3rd for the first time in our Prem history. Yes, we could've won it, and yes, we blew 2nd place, no arguments. But we learnt a lot about the squad before pre-season and WITHOUT blowing our CL group stage qualification.

Look at Poch last night, he was furious.

I personally will move on and trust the manager to get it right.

It would be extremely boring to only be reactive about everything at the club, instead of proactively discussing possibilities. No one's saying Poch won't do what he thinks is right. But what *should* be done is a topic open for discussion, and sacrificing one player somewhat unfairly in order to get a reaction from the rest of the bottlers is one solution that's being discussed; no more, no less.

Fact of the matter is, we finished behind L'Arse after throwing away a large lead, again. Poch's failure in that regard. Not *much* of a failure by any means given extenuating circumstances, the size of our relative wage bills and all that, but a failure nonetheless that will be tallied against the more pertinent, undoubtedly solid success of finishing 3rd and securing CL football for only the second time in our history. That spurs discussions on where we can improve, which bringsvaried suggestions. Nothing untoward about it.
 
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Hasn't done his idol any harm over the years.

I think you are sorely confusing some issues here. The players SAF bombed out were bombed out for some pretty deep reasons, the pitch being part of it. In fact, what Poch did last season was far more in line with Fergie. RVN, Beckham, Sharpe, even Keane, ALL were as much about how their extra-cirriculars were affecting the mood and their game. Stam was purely perceived respect issues (he admits he made a mistake). Walker is none of those.
 
Walker is not a problem IMO. He usually is well up for the challenge.
If we are forced to sacrifice someone let's buy Terry.
 
Who said that, and why are you picking up 'impressions' in that regard? Not slitting your wrists over yesterday makes you someone with a different viewpoint about disappointment, and I've personally never had a problem with that. Rounding on those that do, however...well, you know my views on that sh*te.



It would be extremely boring to only be reactive about everything at the club, instead of proactively discussing possibilities. No one's saying Poch won't do what he thinks is right. But what *should* be done is a topic open for discussion, and sacrificing one player somewhat unfairly in order to get a reaction from the rest of the bottlers is one solution that's being discussed; no more, no less.

Fact of the matter is, we finished behind L'Arse after throwing away a large lead, again. Poch's failure in that regard. Not *much* of a failure by any means given extenuating circumstances, the size of our relative wage bills and all that, but a failure nonetheless that will be tallied against the more pertinent, undoubtedly solid success of finishing 3rd and securing CL football for only the second time in our history. That spurs discussions on where we can improve, which bringsvaried suggestions. Nothing untoward about it.

We will be going in circles again. Just as you are entitled to speak about 'sacrificial lambs' and whatnot, I am entitled to react. In your own words, 'you know what I think of that sh-@&e'...if you put the theory out, don't get upset if someone/me challenges it.
 
I think you are sorely confusing some issues here. The players SAF bombed out were bombed out for some pretty deep reasons, the pitch being part of it. In fact, what Poch did last season was far more in line with Fergie. RVN, Beckham, Sharpe, even Keane, ALL were as much about how their extra-cirriculars were affecting the mood and their game. Stam was purely perceived respect issues (he admits he made a mistake). Walker is none of those.

I linked some articles later on which talk about his excessive ruthlessness; Keane's extra-curriculars didn't really affect his status with the squad, and indeed forcing him out spurred a lot of shock and resentment, as did Stam. Fergie did it anyway,perhaps to get a reaction.

You mentioned a few posts earlier that you had a couple of senior players you think really let Poch down against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I'd be interested to hear who they are, since I'm struggling to come up with someone else who fits the criteria of being disposable yet seemingly complacent about their status in the side.

We will be going in circles again. Just as you are entitled to speak about 'sacrificial lambs' and whatnot, I am entitled to react. In your own words, 'you know what I think of that sh-@&e'...if you put the theory out, don't get upset if someone/me challenges it.

Actually, I don't really know what you think of 'that sh*te', because you're speaking from a completely different viewpoint which has some defensiveness behind it that doesn't seem at all necessary, to be honest. :p Understand - I have no qualms and hold no grudges speaking about ways to improve the squad, and disagreeing with people who think otherwise. My only real gripe comes when people round on other posters post-game for daring to be disappointed with the result, the performance, or things of that nature, and the culprits are well known and will continue to be well known in that regard. You're assuredly only *occasionally* one of 'em, and by no means a regular. Which is why I was surprised when you started with the bit about feeling like you were being labelled a 'happy clapper' in the wake of yesterday - I didn't see anyone saying or even insinuating that, and you were as gobsmacked and disappointed as anyone else, if I recall correctly.

I speak of 'sacrificial lambs' because it's one way (imv) to get the side shocked and ruthless, ready to move up a gear and get them into the state of mind where the smallest slip is punished, and collapses like the one we've had over the past month initiate exceedingly angry and honest inquests. Poch will definitely try to implement that mentality, but it has to come from within the players themselves - this sort of collapse, as we've now seen, lurks underneath even this Spurs side, despite all the efforts Poch has made to change mentalities and attitudes. Thus, I proposed an unfair solution, since I couldn't see any way of making it fairer.

It's literally much the same mindset people adopt when asking for a better player to be bought to replace a less talented one - that player is more disposable than another, better is available, why not buy one and ship out the other? In many cases, it's unfair; the latter player might have some issues affecting his performance, or might be playing through an injury (a la Mason), etcetera. But it happens across the football world anyway. So where's the craziness in proposing that something similar be done with a starting eleven player?

Again, not totally sure what you're getting worked up about, mate. :) Is someone saying we're in for relegation next year? Is someone saying Poch is a fraud? Is someone saying he doesn't care about improving the side? No, what people are suggesting is ways to make sure such a collapse never happens again - Poch probably has his own ideas, but since he doesn't speak of 'em publically, people are spit-balling. What's suddenly so shocking about that?
 
For the record, I would certainly be interested to analyze how the return of Verts might/might not have impacted us. It 'seemed' a though Toby/Wimmer had a great thing going for a couple of months, very solid, very defined roles, etc, etc. I wonder. This in reply to Dubai wondering who I might be referring to in my post. But In Poch I (continue) To Trust...despite the Cookian ending to the season!
 
I prefer happy and always have.
Its sometimes is allusive like just after yesterday's abortion of a display, but it's slowly returning!

amen my friend!...on an unrelated note, I had to laugh at myself last night. After all my joy at our 'fight' against Chelski/how we would never be bullied, etc, we then went up there and ponced about in our slippers like Coronation Street grannies! OUCH!
 
For the record, I would certainly be interested to analyze how the return of Verts might/might not have impacted us. It 'seemed' a though Toby/Wimmer had a great thing going for a couple of months, very solid, very defined roles, etc, etc. I wonder. This in reply to Dubai wondering who I might be referring to in my post. But In Poch I (continue) To Trust...despite the Cookian ending to the season!

Yeah, I definitely agree there. I think our PPG was actually slightly higher with Wimmer-Toby than it was with Toby-Verts, and that was before this end-of-season debacle. Next season, one slip from Verts has to give Wimmer a first-team spot immediately, imo.
 
Don't get me wrong steff, I completely agree with you on everything and completely back Poch.

As I said, I haven't seen yesterday's game and won't, but I was saying 'if' Walker was a player, as anyone else, who failed to revel in the pressure, it's not a wildly bad idea to sacrifice a popular member of the squad to show what can happen. Weve always had a lot of talent. We haven't always had a lot of winners.
 
amen my friend!...on an unrelated note, I had to laugh at myself last night. After all my joy at our 'fight' against Chelski/how we would never be bullied, etc, we then went up there and ponced about in our slippers like Coronation Street grannies! OUCH!

All the Chelsea game did was:
  • Lose us 2 points
  • Got us 9 bookings
  • Got one of our key midfielder band for 6 games
  • cost £200+k

and gave bloody John Terry a fudging hard on.

We blew in that night and never got our heads back on straight!

But apart from that it was defiantly a watershed moment
 
Yeah, I definitely agree there. I think our PPG was actually slightly higher with Wimmer-Toby than it was with Toby-Verts, and that was before this end-of-season debacle. Next season, one slip from Verts has to give Wimmer a first-team spot immediately, imo.

I was wondering...and i wonder if Poch has that on his radar with regards to, hmm, shaking things up?
 
Don't get me wrong steff, I completely agree with you on everything and completely back Poch.

As I said, I haven't seen yesterday's game and won't, but I was saying 'if' Walker was a player, as anyone else, who failed to revel in the pressure, it's not a wildly bad idea to sacrifice a popular member of the squad to show what can happen. Weve always had a lot of talent. We haven't always had a lot of winners.

Indeed, I just think that there are others? One thing to consider yesterday - he was our ONLY defender with pace, thus could not afford to push on quite so much/be so daring, especially given the midfield? I think he was somewhat hamstrung yesterday. Had he not been nearly crippled by that fudging terrible foul, I believe we'd have ground our way back into things. Glad to see none of us are blaming the non-penalty for the collapse though, as we clearly lost shape at 3-1, when a side of our supposed quality could still have got back into it.
 
I was wondering...and i wonder if Poch has that on his radar with regards to, hmm, shaking things up?

Might well be the case, especially given his contract status (I know Ossie said he'd signed a new deal recently, but there's been no public news, right?); if you want to replace Walker with Verts as a more suitable 'sacrificial lamb' (and perhaps a less unfairly treated one), then by all means, be my guest. :)
 
Might well be the case, especially given his contract status (I know Ossie said he'd signed a new deal recently, but there's been no public news, right?); if you want to replace Walker with Verts as a more suitable 'sacrificial lamb' (and perhaps a less unfairly treated one), then by all means, be my guest. :)

:D
 
Normally I would have been gutted to lose a place to Le Arse, but not this time. When we drew with Chelsea I had never been so depressed about Spurs. It looked as if we would finish ahead of The red scum, the Blue scum, Emirates Marketing Project, Yanited and Liverpool and still not be champions. We let Leicester beat us. So, I'm quite relaxed for the Scummers to go into the history books as the club that came second to Leicester. In fact, I secretly believed this would happen four or five weeks before the end of the season.
 
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