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***OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v Borussia Dortmund - first leg***

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I don't think it was a deliberate attempt to get out of the competition, I think he made a big gamble and lost and in my opinion, it wasn't worth the gamble. A lot of people seem to be into this idea that it has to be one or the other in terms of the League or Europa. Why can't it be both? Why do we have to prioritise between two competitions when we have 8 weeks left in the season? If we get knocked out despite playing a reasonable side then that is fair enough but the team and the performance of those picked with the exception of a few has shown that in a tie like that you have to go with your strongest side or what is the point in even having got this far? It just makes the 2nd leg completely redundant without having really given it a go in the 1st leg.
Yes, I get what you are saying. I would love us to be able to do both the league title and the EL. But how many teams truly manage to do that? And how many of those teams that do have the age and experience of this Spurs team? I think Poch felt he could get by without the strongest team starting and it didn't work. If he had started with the strongest team, would it have impacted on our next league game (whilst it should be comfortable, I don't think we can take Villa for granted). I honestly don't know what to feel. I want us to win everything! I feel disappointed that we are effectively out of the EL. I feel hopeful that we are still in the title race. I really think this season has come a year too early for us. Here we are 'arguing' about whether we should prioritise pushing to win the Europa League over pushing to win the league title. Who the hell would have imagined us being in such a position in mid-March, this year?
 
Why did it take him until February to decide to make the League the priority?
It was obvious anyone that the League was our best chance of the getting at least top 4 back in October or November.
Does he refuse to look at a league table until the second half of the season.

I will try to explain my view on this one more time mate.

Europa League has allowed him to have a squad which is CLEARLY good enough to challenge for this season's premiership title. It was lightly-used in August/Sept, came to the fore in Autumn/Winter, and here we are, March, 2nd in the league and dealing with the sorts of issues all teams have except we played West Ham, Goons and Dortmund in 11 days.
Whether people agree with what he did or not is one thing, but to refuse to accept that there is some validity to this explanation is a blindspot IMO.
 
Yes, I get what you are saying. I would love us to be able to do both the league title and the EL. But how many teams truly manage to do that? And how many of those teams that do have the age and experience of this Spurs team? I think Poch felt he could get by without the strongest team starting and it didn't work. If he had started with the strongest team, would it have impacted on our next league game (whilst it should be comfortable, I don't think we can take Villa for granted). I honestly don't know what to feel. I want us to win everything! I feel disappointed that we are effectively out of the EL. I feel hopeful that we are still in the title race. I really think this season has come a year too early for us. Here we are 'arguing' about whether we should prioritise pushing to win the Europa League over pushing to win the league title. Who the hell would have imagined us being in such a position in mid-March, this year?

Agree, and will add that the only reason it has come a year too early is that some people cannot adjust their expectations proportionately.
 
I thought Dortmund were very good and I think with our strongest 11 we would still have lost but I think we would still be in the tie. I think that is the most frustrating thing. If you give yourself a chance for the second leg then it doesn't matter what the result was in the 1st leg but that game is now a dead rubber and effectively worthless. I would have taken 3-1 before the game out there but I think we were lucky not to lose 5-0 in all honesty.

fair enough

I don't think Kane or Dier would have made much difference, I think all three of their goals came from defensive lapses from an unrotated defence (allowing for the regular FB shuffle)
 
Wow, I am really surprised that you have that opinion as I have always thought you were a reasonable type of guy.



Mind you may have a point and I am a fool, having spent the best part of three days traveling to and from Germany ( and spent several hundred pounds doing it) expecting to see a strong Spurs side take on one the best teams in Europe ( who are chasing a treble) how foolish of me to expect us to put out a side who would be able to not beat them maybe but to at least give them a good game.



Instead Poch ( and before going any further I have said on here that I think he is doing a great job and have no problems with what he had done) however that team was never going to be able to compete at that level, the vast majority of the fans at the game, in the bars after and on the way home were gobsmacked that he choose such a weak side and they all said on hearing the side that we would be lucky to escape a heavy defeat ( and it really could have been a lot worse in reality).

As I have said before ( in other threads) I am not one to moan about ticket prices and no one holds a gun against my head and makes me goes to these games ( so its my OWN fault when I see these things happen). Now I have someone suggesting I am a fool because I was naïve enough to believe we would have named a stronger side, as I said maybe I am and what I should do is give up my ST and buy 50 inch TV and become a armchair supporter and be satisfied with that, then when guys who do get of their arses and make the effort to actually go and support their team moan about the weak sides in major games I can call them fools.



Poor form Milo from you, poor form.


Full credit for traveling (as always - and I'm sure you didn't need that from me BTW, I meant it in positive spirit and not patronizing in any way) and having done several European trips myself (including one to FC Twente where I fully expected NOT to see a full 11) I have to say that I think there is a middle view on the matter (I also don't think Milo meant traveling fans were 'fools' BTW, I really don't, and again, given that it was a poor choice of word, I think -by your admission- his usual very smart and erudite contributions should earn him a break on this one)...

But let's break down the team selection.

Dier - carrying a knock and knackered
Alli - suspended
Rose - carrying a knock and usually rotated
Walker - usually rotated
Verts - injured
Dembele - coming off an injury - 75 mins against the Goons
Kane - needed a rest

I think we all saw those situations prior to the game. So effectively, that leaves three positions people are upset about.

Carroll
Mason
Chadli


Carroll over Bentaleb must be to do with the meritocracy/Bentaleb not doing enough for the manager. Carroll is a ball-player and someone who doesn't usually lose possession/can play quick touch football. I don't think anyone thought he would be quite so out of his depth. I didn't.

Mason - excellent when playing alongside a 'first-team-player' but as we sadly saw, not at his best when part of a tandem with Carroll. Again, few options in there right now.

Chadli - has been scoring goals and has played a role all season. I think, sadly, once again we would have to say he was not up to it against this quality.

Son was someone that many wanted to start instead of Kane (given that there was an acceptance Kane needed a rest) especially given his success against Dortmund in his Bundy days. I think he is still carrying some of that foot issue because he was too hesitant when he had the chances.

Our FBs tucked in to support CBs who were overrun by poor midfield protection.

It was a poor performance, but I think when you break it down, for some people to suggest that the manager gave up on it before KO is scandalous.

We will be better for this in the long run, trust me...this manager learns from what he sees, and it won't happen next season, in part because we will have the money to get him what he wants this summer.

COYS
 
I am possibly being a bit strong on Onomah although in the times I have seen him I am not sure exactly what he is or where he plays. All I know is I don't think he is currently of sufficient standard to be playing and that of course is down to the manager if he is picking him. I thought he was poor against Palace and offered very little so what made Pochettino think he was good enough for Dortmund is beyond me.

The selection is all the more baffling of Carroll with Mason considering Mason's natural position is not in the two but behind the forward as a no.10. So you have one player who is not a natural holding player with one who is so lightweight. It was never going to end well really.

I have no issues with people disagreeing or wanting to back the manager, that is absolutely fine but to blindly follow regardless is not for me. If Poch makes and error then I am definitely going to say it is an error if that is how I feel and I don't care who disagrees with me. He has been great for us and done a solid and spectacular job at times this season but he has made two major errors for me with Thursday being one and the selection for the Arsenal league cup game which underestimated how much our fans want to compete directly with Arsenal in a 90 minute game.


Being someone that gets tarred with that brush, I disagree with you on both the Dortmund selection and the gooner cup selection. However I think he made a BIG mistake not trusting Lamela (despite the cheating from sanchez) against the filth at home (he was a huge presence and I believe we'd have won hd he stayed on as he can avoid second yellow situations as he has done all season), and there is a plausible argument to say he got it wrong at the death star with Lamela too.
 
Without trying to turn this into a statsfest, how are we statistically far more likely to win he league than the EL this season?

To win a cup you have to win every game, in theory at least, we could win the league without winning another game. I was going to rather crudely calculate the odds of each but then I stumbled across this and their methodology is far more robust than mine.

http://www.euroclubindex.com/asp/Leagueodds.asp

This is their odds as of the 8 March on winning the league

1
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Leicester City 55.9%
2
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Tottenham Hotspur 22.9%
3
4007.png
Arsenal 11.2%
4
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Emirates Marketing Project 9.6%
5
4080.png
Manchester United 0.3%
6
4075.png
Liverpool 0.1%

And these are their odds on winning the Europa League as of the 7 March, so before Thursday's game

1 Borussia Dortmund (3470)17.2%
2 Sevilla FC (3405)16.6%
3 Manchester United (3133)7.7%
4 Villarreal CF (3138)7.6%
5 Tottenham Hotspur (3192)7.0%
6 Athletic Club (3118)6.6%
7 Valencia CF (3077)6.0%
8 Shakhtar Donetsk (2975)5.5%
9 Bayer Leverkusen (3038)5.3%
10 Liverpool (3034)4.8%
11 Fenerbahçe (2876)4.0%
12 Sparta Praha (2903)3.9%
13 Lazio (2849)2.9%
14 FC Basel (2890)2.7%
15 Sporting Braga (2614)1.2%
16 Anderlecht (2590)1.0%

http://www.euroclubindex.com/asp/Leagueodds.asp
 
(I also don't think Milo meant traveling fans were 'fools' BTW, I really don't, and again, given that it was a poor choice of word, I think -by your admission- his usual very smart and erudite contributions should earn him a break on this one)...

I certainly didn't say that travelling fans are fools and I am sorry if I was unclear and it appeared that I did. My comment was around expectations of team selection and I fail to believe that anyone did not consider the possibility of Poch rotating the team for this game, given some of his team selections in Europe and the other cups.

I was listening to last Monday's Football Weekly earlier and in their preview of the game, the first thing that they discussed was whether Poch would rotate the team.
 
Yes, I get what you are saying. I would love us to be able to do both the league title and the EL. But how many teams truly manage to do that? And how many of those teams that do have the age and experience of this Spurs team? I think Poch felt he could get by without the strongest team starting and it didn't work. If he had started with the strongest team, would it have impacted on our next league game (whilst it should be comfortable, I don't think we can take Villa for granted). I honestly don't know what to feel. I want us to win everything! I feel disappointed that we are effectively out of the EL. I feel hopeful that we are still in the title race. I really think this season has come a year too early for us. Here we are 'arguing' about whether we should prioritise pushing to win the Europa League over pushing to win the league title. Who the hell would have imagined us being in such a position in mid-March, this year?

I am just of the opinion that at this point in the season with about 8 weeks left and I just think we should go with our strongest starting 11 that is available at that point in each fixture and see where it takes us. If you beat Dortmund over two legs it is another 4 fixtures added to the season before you play a final which is after the final game. I don't think it is a lot more work overall. I think we are more than capable of juggling two competitions and have always thought that although it would have been easier to juggle the league and FA Cup. I want us to win things and I don't think it massively pleased some of those players like Lloris and Toby to be in that side if we weren't going to really have a go, they may as well have been rested as well.
 
I am just of the opinion that at this point in the season with about 8 weeks left and I just think we should go with our strongest starting 11 that is available at that point in each fixture and see where it takes us. If you beat Dortmund over two legs it is another 4 fixtures added to the season before you play a final which is after the final game. I don't think it is a lot more work overall. I think we are more than capable of juggling two competitions and have always thought that although it would have been easier to juggle the league and FA Cup. I want us to win things and I don't think it massively pleased some of those players like Lloris and Toby to be in that side if we weren't going to really have a go, they may as well have been rested as well.

what criteria would you use to conclude "strongest 11"?
 
what criteria would you use to conclude "strongest 11"?

Probably one that doesn't include Onomah and Carroll and played Lamela, Dembele and Kane from the start to be honest. Does your criteria include those two within a strongest 11?
 
Probably one that doesn't include Onomah and Carroll and played Lamela, Dembele and Kane from the start to be honest. Does your criteria include those two within a strongest 11?

I'd include fitness, mental state and the situation with carried injuries in mine, each player is a judgement call

obviously only the coaching team have all the data
 
I'd include fitness, mental state and the situation with carried injuries in mine, each player is a judgement call

obviously only the coaching team have all the data

Complete agree. I would also suggest that if those said players were on the bench that it would be acceptable that they could play at least a part in the fixture regardless of whether it was last 30 min's or second half or the reverse of that as part of your broader criteria? After all they must have met that criteria to be there in the first place?
 
Complete agree. I would also suggest that if those said players were on the bench that it would be acceptable that they could play at least a part in the fixture regardless of whether it was last 30 min's or second half or the reverse of that as part of your broader criteria? After all they must have met that criteria to be there in the first place?

I think the bar for the bench is lower than the one to start
 
But fit to play a part of sorts you would accept?

I think being fit enough to be risked on the bench and maybe make a late cameo is far from the same as being fit enough to start the game

it's not just about what a player does with the ball
at his feet, it's the pressing, it's the defensive schemes, it's trusting his body to stretch for that tackle/interception/glance, you don't want a piece of the machine nursing itself

by all means give a player 20 minutes to try and change something or build fitness but don't start anyone who isn't feasibly able to play the whole 90, that's a waste of a substitution you may need to cover an injury or a tactical shift after a dismissal
 
I think being fit enough to be risked on the bench and maybe make a late cameo is far from the same as being fit enough to start the game

it's not just about what a player does with the ball
at his feet, it's the pressing, it's the defensive schemes, it's trusting his body to stretch for that tackle/interception/glance, you don't want a piece of the machine nursing itself

by all means give a player 20 minutes to try and change something or build fitness but don't start anyone who isn't feasibly able to play the whole 90, that's a waste of a substitution you may need to cover an injury or a tactical shift after a dismissal

I think we kind of agree yet disagree here. With the exception of Kane, the substitutions were not cameos and there were no issues with their fitness, certainly none reported by the club. I think I can deduce that everyone on the bench was fit to play, even the 90 should they be required but it was deemed that they weren't. Rose was not fit and therefore didn't travel and Dier was rested and therefore didn't travel. I don't think we were taking anyone out there that could only play a 'cameo'. They simply would not have been risked or made to travel.

We obviously agree to disagree here as it is going round in circles and whilst I accept and understand that a number of factors that dictate if a player will start/be benched/rested I believe that those players had no fitness issues as per se but were simply benched in the hope they wouldn't be required and I have seen nothing to dissuade me from that.
 
I think we kind of agree yet disagree here. With the exception of Kane, the substitutions were not cameos and there were no issues with their fitness, certainly none reported by the club. I think I can deduce that everyone on the bench was fit to play, even the 90 should they be required but it was deemed that they weren't. Rose was not fit and therefore didn't travel and Dier was rested and therefore didn't travel. I don't think we were taking anyone out there that could only play a 'cameo'. They simply would not have been risked or made to travel.

We obviously agree to disagree here as it is going round in circles and whilst I accept and understand that a number of factors that dictate if a player will start/be benched/rested I believe that those players had no fitness issues as per se but were simply benched in the hope they wouldn't be required and I have seen nothing to dissuade me from that.

yep, agree to disagree, I think they were fudged after the NLD
 
I'm pretty sure the commentator today in the Villa game said that Chadli only lasted 25 minutes against Dortmund and had to be taken off with an injury... I checked and he came off after 58 for Dembele, was it an injury? Can't remember? Chadli came on today so I doubt it.
 
I certainly didn't say that travelling fans are fools and I am sorry if I was unclear and it appeared that I did. My comment was around expectations of team selection and I fail to believe that anyone did not consider the possibility of Poch rotating the team for this game, given some of his team selections in Europe and the other cups.

I was listening to last Monday's Football Weekly earlier and in their preview of the game, the first thing that they discussed was whether Poch would rotate the team.

Indeed...
 
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