***OMT: Mighty Spurs vs Manure***

[El Guepardo]

Are you contradicting yourself there?
Replacing a £50m rb with a £12m who is inferior, but our big money buys are flops?
Cost isn't always an indicator of quality or value, Eriksen was £12m, NDombele £50 odd m.
Its not as easy as saying buy expensive, thise players are better.

We need to be serious about replacing a player properly. Yes, you’re right that fee isn’t always an indication of quality. I would say though that often we haven’t identified a similar player to that sold, and bought them irrespective of price (within reason). So many players have left over the past year and were not adequately replaced.

At one time we had Berbatov, Keane, Defoe and Bent. All 4 decent level strikers, yet now we have one top striker who came through the youth ranks. Evidently something has gone wrong in the interim period. We have seen so many top players leave and not be adequately replaced.

You mentioned Eriksen, and yes for his price he was an exceptional signing. A Gareth Bale replacement however he was not.

We spent £30m on Sissoko. He was a trier but a lot of money on a player when there were no doubt a lot better options to be had if we hadn’t left it so late.

It’s great that with Paratici, hopefully we have a system in place which will improve the success rate of our signings.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I know some may (will?) call this premature but I definitely think we need to start succession planning for Son. ‘Planning’ being the key word here, it’s not about replacing him immediately. But, he’ll turn 30 this summer.

It’s maybe not the priority for this summer, but should the opportunity arise to bring in his long term replacement, I think that would be helpful.

Say what you like about Liverpool, but their succession planning for players in key positions is spot on. Diaz, Jota, Konate. All brought in at good ages at the right time of the cycle. We could learn a lot from them.

Think we’ve been trying this with the likes of Sanchez, Moura, Bergwijn, Gill, but our recruitment is just way off.

 

[glasgowspur]

We need to be serious about replacing a player properly. Yes, you’re right that fee isn’t always an indication of quality. I would say though that often we haven’t identified a similar player to that sold, and bought them irrespective of price (within reason). So many players have left over the past year and were not adequately replaced.

At one time we had Berbatov, Keane, Defoe and Bent. All 4 decent level strikers, yet now we have one top striker who came through the youth ranks. Evidently something has gone wrong in the interim period. We have seen so many top players leave and not be adequately replaced.

You mentioned Eriksen, and yes for his price he was an exceptional signing. A Gareth Bale replacement however he was not.

We spent £30m on Sissoko. He was a trier but a lot of money on a player when there were no doubt a lot better options to be had if we hadn’t left it so late.

It’s great that with Paratici, hopefully we have a system in place which will improve the success rate of our signings.

For me that's been the biggest issue, no real clear idea of our playing style going forward. Its all just a mishmash, and when we need to transition we are too slow and too impatient.
It all seems very opportunistic, no plan.

 

[El Guepardo]

For me that's been the biggest issue, no real clear idea of our playing style going forward. Its all just a mishmash, and when we need to transition we are too slow and too impatient.
It all seems very opportunistic, no plan.

We almost need to say to Conte and Paratici. We want you both here for the next five years. Then give them that time. Back them fully, rather than mixing projects up. And that continued period of time might be what helps us to push forward. Without that, as every new manager comes, each with their own unique playing style under which certain squad players are unsuitable, the whole process starts over and over but never really gets anywhere.

 

[glasgowspur]

We almost need to say to Conte and Paratici. We want you both here for the next five years. Then give them that time. Back them fully, rather than mixing projects up. And that continued period of time might be what helps us to push forward. Without that, as every new manager comes, each with their own unique playing style under which certain squad players are unsuitable, the whole process starts over and over but never really gets anywhere.

From the low point we are at then i think five yearrs is more than fair.
Do we have the stomach for it is the big question?
Does conte?

 

[Finney Is Back]

Are you contradicting yourself there?
Replacing a £50m rb with a £12m who is inferior, but our big money buys are flops?
Cost isn't always an indicator of quality or value, Eriksen was £12m, NDombele £50 odd m.
Its not as easy as saying buy expensive, thise players are better.

Most of the players that we have signed are good players, they have just been signed by a specific manager with a specific system and requirement for that player. That manager then gets let go and the new one replacing him tends to always have a completely different footballing philosophy, rendering a fair portion of the budget previously spent to be wasted. Even last summer that it is evident.... Pay relatively big money for a right back and left winger only to then bring in a new manager a quarter of the way through the season who doesn't play with either a right back or a left winger. Those types of planning mistakes are fine for clubs with huge transfer budgets but not for a club like ours who have limited funds.

With proper planning (i.e. not simply eventually settling for a manager miles down the list as we did last summer, so that the manager has half a chance of lasting a few years at the club) the £50 to £60 million spent on the right back and left winger last summer could've been put to use buying (e.g) a RWB and central midfielder with us likely now having several more points in the league.

The good news is that other than the likely now largely wasted 2021/22 season, the signing of those two unsuited players needn't set us back long term as both should be sellable this summer to teams who do play players in those positions without the club losing too much money. Perhaps we can recoup as much as £45-£50m of the £60m spent and then put that to much better use for this manager's system (assuming he is staying).

 

[DaveT316]

Most of the players that we have signed are good players, they have just been signed by a specific manager with a specific system and requirement for that player. That manager then gets let go and the new one replacing him tends to always have a completely different footballing philosophy, rendering a fair portion of the budget previously spent to be wasted. Even last summer that it is evident.... Pay relatively big money for a right back and left winger only to then bring in a new manager a quarter of the way through the season who doesn't play with either a right back or a left winger. Those types of planning mistakes are fine for clubs with huge transfer budgets but not for a club like ours who have limited funds.

With proper planning (i.e. not simply eventually settling for a manager miles down the list last summer so that he has half a chance of lasting a few years at the club) the £50 to £60 million spent on the right back and left winger last summer could've been put to use buying (e.g) a RWB and central midfielder with us likely now having several more points in the league.

The good news is that other than the likely now largely wasted 2021/22 season, the signing of those two unsuited players needn't set us back long term as both should be sellable this summer to teams who do play players in those positions without the club losing too much money. Perhaps we can recoup as much as £45-£50m of the £60m spent and then put that to much better use for this manager's system (assuming he is staying).

Plus maybe another £50-60m for GLC and NDombele and £50-70m on top and we should be well placed to strengthen properly.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Plus maybe another £50-60m for GLC and NDombele and £50-70m on top and we should be well placed to strengthen properly.

If we are ruthless this summer with who we really want/need and who we don't then we'd have all of these as possible sales this summer (I've had a guess at what I think an achievable transfer fee might be)....

£0: Gollini
£18m: Royale (we don't play with a RB so lets move him on)
£12m: Tanganga (looks just a level below where we want to be due to his lack of touch not really suiting him being a Conte defender)
£20m: Sanchez (too inconsistent, not a good enough passer of the ball for a Conte back 3)
£12m: Rodon (doesn't seem to be trusted, another who probably isn't a good enough passer of the ball. We might as well bring in the funds to put towards a player who is)
£15m: Winks (too easily bypassed to play in a midfield 2)
£18m: Lo Celso (no real stand out attributes as a PL player, better suited to Spain where he has time to shift it onto his left foot all the time)
£20m: Ndombele (PL seems too physical for him, a couple of fouls from the opposition and he hides)
£15m: Moura (decent squad player but one who is now getting to the point where need to think about bringing in the funds and replacing)
£25m: Gill (we don't play with a LW, lets put the valuable funds to use elsewhere)

Getting rid of that lot but keeping the rest would mean we would absolutely need to bring in:
GK
1xRWB
2xCBs
1xCM
1xRWF

It would be great if at least 3 and maybe as many as 4 of those 6 players could walk straight into the first team as well.

On top of that we also lack cover for Kane and don't really have a creative attacking midfield player in the squad at all. That creative attacking midfield player probably only needs to play a bit part in games that we are chasing, so could be an older player like Eriksen. Though if we were clever we could probably sign a player that can play as either a RWF or creative AM, or either a RWF or striker. A player like De Ketelaere perhaps who could maybe cover all three positions, or Depay who could cover as a wide forward and centre forward or even Karim Adeyemi who could do the same.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

If we are ruthless this summer with who we really want/need and who we don't then we'd have all of these as possible sales this summer (I've had a guess at what I think an achievable transfer fee might be)....

£0: Gollini
£18m: Royale (we don't play with a RB so lets move him on)
£12m: Tanganga (looks just a level below where we want to be due to his lack of touch not really suiting him being a Conte defender)
£20m: Sanchez (too inconsistent, not a good enough passer of the ball for a Conte back 3)
£12m: Rodon (doesn't seem to be trusted, another who probably isn't a good enough passer of the ball. We might as well bring in the funds to put towards a player who is)
£15m: Winks (too easily bypassed to play in a midfield 2)
£18m: Lo Celso (no real stand out attributes as a PL player, better suited to Spain where he has time to shift it onto his left foot all the time)
£20m: Ndombele (PL seems too physical for him, a couple of fouls from the opposition and he hides)
£15m: Moura (decent squad player but one who is now getting to the point where need to think about bringing in the funds and replacing)
£25m: Gill (we don't play with a LW, lets put the valuable funds to use elsewhere)

Getting rid of that lot but keeping the rest would mean we would absolutely need to bring in:
GK
1xRWB
2xCBs
1xCM
1xRWF

It would be great if at least 3 and maybe as many as 4 of those 6 players could walk straight into the first team as well.

On top of that we also lack cover for Kane and don't really have a creative attacking midfield player in the squad at all. That creative attacking midfield player probably only needs to play a bit part in games that we are chasing, so could be an older player like Eriksen. Though if we were clever we could probably sign a player that can play as either a RWF or creative AM, or either a RWF or striker. A player like De Ketelaere perhaps who could maybe cover all three positions, or Depay who could cover as a wide forward and centre forward or even Karim Adeyemi who could do the same.

I like the idea
But I think the fees may be optimistic
I’d love to be wrong

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Most of the players that we have signed are good players, they have just been signed by a specific manager with a specific system and requirement for that player. That manager then gets let go and the new one replacing him tends to always have a completely different footballing philosophy, rendering a fair portion of the budget previously spent to be wasted. Even last summer that it is evident.... Pay relatively big money for a right back and left winger only to then bring in a new manager a quarter of the way through the season who doesn't play with either a right back or a left winger. Those types of planning mistakes are fine for clubs with huge transfer budgets but not for a club like ours who have limited funds.

With proper planning (i.e. not simply eventually settling for a manager miles down the list as we did last summer, so that the manager has half a chance of lasting a few years at the club) the £50 to £60 million spent on the right back and left winger last summer could've been put to use buying (e.g) a RWB and central midfielder with us likely now having several more points in the league.

The good news is that other than the likely now largely wasted 2021/22 season, the signing of those two unsuited players needn't set us back long term as both should be sellable this summer to teams who do play players in those positions without the club losing too much money. Perhaps we can recoup as much as £45-£50m of the £60m spent and then put that to much better use for this manager's system (assuming he is staying).

People have forgotten pools failures too when signing for a multitude of systems and a managers. So I agree with you here 100%
The right player in the wrong system is the wrong player

 

[spurspinter1]

I like the idea
But I think the fees may be optimistic
I’d love to be wrong

The fees we hope for when talking about players not considered good enough are often a bit of a contradiction. It’s fun to map things out but I don’t think many would have imagined letting Dele go solely for future clauses or Aurier for nothing. I guess there are examples where we get more than we expected for a player like Wimmer.

It shouldn’t annoy me so much but I do think the January window being called a “clear out” like it was a long term solution is premature. It’s incredible that we got in two that hit the ground running, no doubt. There’s still the issue of the loanees returning which may hinder our movement in the summer window that everyone is waiting for.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The fees we hope for when talking about players not considered good enough are often a bit of a contradiction. It’s fun to map things out but I don’t think many would have imagined letting Dele go solely for future clauses or Aurier for nothing. I guess there are examples where we get more than we expected for a player like Wimmer.

It shouldn’t annoy me so much but I do think the January window being called a “clear out” like it was a long term solution is premature. It’s incredible that we got in two that hit the ground running, no doubt. There’s still the issue of the loanees returning which may hinder our movement in the summer window that everyone is waiting for.

Fair calls
I never thought we would get much for Aurier because of his contract and the fact he has a criminal record
Dele… yeah leave that one
But as you say Wimmer for £18m was mega for us

 

[metalgear]

There he is!
Eric's fault was it?

Yes, I know he's got lots of spurs fans and I don't doubt he is really good compared to what we have, but I doubt any of the CL playing clubs want him in exchange for their CBs.

 

[thfcsteff]

Yes, I know he's got lots of spurs fans and I don't doubt he is really good compared to what we have, but I doubt any of the CL playing clubs want him in exchange for their CBs.

OK. But I have to ask, given that your position on him is very clear, can you honestly blame him for the defeat? Watch the first goal again: both our CMs get easily taken out, which leaves Ronaldo in acres of space. Dier could've closed down but there is a runner who has a step on Davies behind him.

 

[90291Spur]

From the low point we are at then i think five yearrs is more than fair.
Do we have the stomach for it is the big question?
Does conte?

Does Levy? If levy gives conte what he asks for he will, more than likely, stay. If not, he’ll be off double quick.

 

[metalgear]

OK. But I have to ask, given that your position on him is very clear, can you honestly blame him for the defeat? Watch the first goal again: both our CMs get easily taken out, which leaves Ronaldo in acres of space. Dier could've closed down but there is a runner who has a step on Davies behind him.

Yes, he is the reason why we are so erratic. In a back 3 you need a solid leader in the centre. One who sees the game and deploys the either of the CBs around him. Crowd the box and he looks good with numbers blocking shots, including him, centrally.

For example if there is a Ronaldo in front of you - especially one in his twilight years - you go and make and impression early and get someone to stick on him. If you're the tallest than you mark Ronaldo in set pieces. These are the tactical calls that Dier lack.

Dier is shouting and pointing right good CBs do but I don't see anyone following or responding to him. Not Romero for sure and not Dier. He doesn't talk to Hojberg who has to be the one of the options for crowding out space for Ronaldo. Dier at the centre of the 3 CBs has the best perspective and has the opportunity to use it to organise the defence in game.

Sure Conte has formations and tactics, but on the pitch, especially in defence, you still need to organize and mark space in response to the opponents. Maybe a good and cheap and locally born back up, but if we want to win things we need someone commanding and tactically sound in the heart of defence. I don't hate Dier, I hate to see
Spurs with a soft defence; just too bad Dier put his hand up for the role instead of opting to move on to another club.

 

[parklane1]

Another good game from him against Brighton, leads by example and the others follow.

 

[thfcsteff]

Answers within the quote...BTW, this is an astounding post to me personally.

Yes, he is the reason why we are so erratic. In a back 3 you need a solid leader in the centre. One who sees the game and deploys the either of the CBs around him. Crowd the box and he looks good with numbers blocking shots, including him, centrally.

What are you saying here? 'Deploys the either of the CBs around him'? What does that mean? Explain it to me please mate. As for the 'crowding the box' comment, what do you think should be done? Not defend in that way?

For example if there is a Ronaldo in front of you - especially one in his twilight years - you go and make and impression early and get someone to stick on him. If you're the tallest than you mark Ronaldo in set pieces. These are the tactical calls that Dier lack.

I'm sorry, are you asking for an early reducer on Ronaldo to set the tone? Aside from the fact that I doubt Ronaldo has ever been intimidated by a reducer, why not look to Hojberg, Bentancur or even Romero to do this as well? As for your 'tactical calls' you do realize that Conte has a very automated defensive shape and set up? Watch the third goal again and tell me that two players didn't have ample opportunities to stop Ronaldo.

Dier is shouting and pointing right good CBs do but I don't see anyone following or responding to him. Not Romero for sure and not Dier. He doesn't talk to Hojberg who has to be the one of the options for crowding out space for Ronaldo. Dier at the centre of the 3 CBs has the best perspective and has the opportunity to use it to organise the defence in game.

I'm sorry, unless you're on the pitch/have a series of cameras on Dier watching what he is doing, this is nonsense. Again, Conte sends his teams out with strict automations and plans.

Sure Conte has formations and tactics, but on the pitch, especially in defence, you still need to organize and mark space in response to the opponents. Maybe a good and cheap and locally born back up, but if we want to win things we need someone commanding and tactically sound in the heart of defence.

We need supreme quality back there for sure going forward, but Eric Dier is not the reason we lost to Manchester United, and I think it's weird that you try to frame it as such.


I don't hate Dier, I hate to see
Spurs with a soft defence; just too bad Dier put his hand up for the role instead of opting to move on to another club.

You have contradicted yourself in the same sentence. I think your obsession with him is weird. I think your blind spots regarding both what he does and brings to the team is equally weird.

 

[metalgear]

Answers within the quote...BTW, this is an astounding post to me personally.

We will get better when we get another CB. It will all make sense to you when a proper and respscted leader of men can organise and galvanise the defence, maybe spend some time watching how other team in the Premier league can keep Ronaldo busy.

I find it astounding that you think that players fall into Conte's strategy and plans with very little autonomy for on pitch alrerations. This is what makes the difference world class and average players.

Live with Dier, accept mediocre defending. That sets our views apart.

Sent from my SM-T865 using Fapatalk

 

[thfcsteff]

We will get better when we get another CB. It will all make sense to you when a proper and respscted leader of men can organise and galvanise the defence, maybe spend some time watching how other team in the Premier league can keep Ronaldo busy.

I find it astounding that you think that players fall into Conte's strategy and plans with very little autonomy for on pitch alrerations. This is what makes the difference world class and average players.

Live with Dier, accept mediocre defending. That sets our views apart.

Sent from my SM-T865 using Fapatalk

There is little point me continuing to have this discussion with you. Read this.

https://theathletic.com/3182743/2022/03/15/defending-set-pieces-is-tottenhams-achilles-heel/

One question; why do you think Antonio Conte is continuing to pick him? Do you think that perhaps it is because he does not feel he has anyone better right now?