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Next Manager?

Bishop said:
With some luck or some better decisions here and there then sure we could have won a cup. But we failed ultimately because the team often performed at its maximum and any slight deviation from that form and committment was massively detrimental because we didn't have much headroom in terms of capability.

I say it all the time but you have to remember the side relied solely on Eriksen as it's creative heartbeat. You'll be hard pressed to find any other side that has won major competitions with just a single creative player in the starting 11 and pretty much in the entire squad. If Eriksen wasn't on song we were stuffed, in the big games the opposition managers who cottoned on just pressed Eriksen and stifiled our attacking plans.

That's why last season the introduction of Lo Celso and Ndombele was so necessary. The side needed more creativity back in Poch's heyday and that's why we often came up short, in both those games against low block defenses and high pressure high profile matches versus our peers in the big 6.
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Point taken re Eriksen and the creativity. I just feel there were too many occasions in big games where we didn’t turn up individually and collectively. Fergie once said if 8 players turn up you probably win the match. We had experienced, seasoned internationals who had played plenty of big games, no one got hold of things and arrested a decline. And Poch often sat on his hands and was reluctant to make subs (we all know his views on subs from his book).
 
billyiddo said:
I don't think you can compare our situation as the 6th or 7th highest wage budget/net transfer combo to the 2nd richest club in a one horse league tbh - especially not when we're talking about domestic trophies specifically and the challenges we face that are unique to being in such a competitive league - if we were only up against 1 side bigger/richer I'd expect that we'd be sat here with multiple trophies under our belts.
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Bayern's total dominance since 2013 is a bit deceptive. In the 10 years leading up to Klopp's first win the Bundesliga had been won by 4 different clubs outside of Bayern (including Dortmund).

So the Bundesliga was more akin to the PL with Bayern being the Manchester United analogue. Imagine if the outside money of Chelsea and be City had not come into the PL. [emoji848]
 
Jurgen the German said:
Fair enough, but there definitely games for me that we drew or lost that weren’t about the squad, they were 400% about bottle. We thrived when we were under the radar. When it became time to deliver we usually fell short.
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Yeah don't disagree that there were moments we could have done better- the discussion, for me at least, is about expectation though.

Were we a club that should be demanding domestic trophies along with our league and CL challenges? Not for me and as stated the evidence shows you need a deep squad to go with your strong XI to do both - that's not where we were.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Point taken re Eriksen and the creativity. I just feel there were too many occasions in big games where we didn’t turn up individually and collectively. Fergie once said if 8 players turn up you probably win the match. We had experienced, seasoned internationals who had played plenty of big games, no one got hold of things and arrested a decline. And Poch often sat on his hands and was reluctant to make subs (we all know his views on subs from his book).
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I hear you I just never expected to win those big games because I saw the side as lacking some stardust and creativity. In those tight moments that is what makes the difference and we never had enough of those difference makers imo.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Poch developed the players that were already here like Kane, Walker, Rose etc. We also recruited really well in the early Poch days and got players for below market value; Wanyama, Eriksen, Toby to name a few. Those players would have got higher wages at bigger clubs, whereas Arsenal were blowing £300k a week on Özil. Are you saying a core group of Lloris, Toby, Jan, Eriksen, Alli, Kane, Son, Rose, Walker wasn’t good enough to win trophies?
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I am amazed people are still making arguments like this. If only football was so black and white, especially where Spurs are concerned. Look at where we are now with Jose Mourinho, one of the greatest managers in the game, with a squad that includes Kane, Son, Bale, Ndombele, Lo Celso Reguillon, Alli Toby. No where in the League, out of the FA cup. I would have thought the struggles of Mourinho would underline how difficult the Spurs job is and how well Poch did. Instead posters are complaining that on top of Champions League football season after season, a final one season and actually challenging for the PL we should also have won a Carabao Cup. As I keep saying we were spoilt under the last manager and I wonder when realistically we are going to challenge for the league again or reach a Champions League final.
 
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SteveAWOL said:
FWIW... according to Deloitte's Football Money League for 1999/2000 Spurs did rank 5th in EPL with 17th biggest income in Europe... 2 decades later and we're still 5th in EPL but up to 9th in Europe...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/1684629.stm
  1. Manchester Utd £117m
  2. Real Madrid £103.7m
  3. Bayern Munich £91.6m
  4. AC Milan £89.7m
  5. Juventus £88.4m
  6. Lazio £79.4m
  7. Chelsea £76.7m
  8. Barcelona £75.2m
  9. Inter Milan £68.9m
  10. Roma £64.1m
  11. Arsenal £61.3m
  12. B Dortmund £59.5m
  13. Leeds United £57.1m
  14. Fiorentina £54.2m
  15. Rangers £51.7m
  16. Marseille £49.9m
  17. Tottenham £48m
  18. Parma £47.5m
  19. Liverpool £46.4m
  20. Saudi Sportswashing Machine £45.1m
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55801145
  1. Barcelona £627.1m (£741.1m)
  2. Real Madrid £627m (£667.5m)
  3. Bayern Munich £556m (£581.8 m)
  4. Manchester United £509m (£627.1m)
  5. Liverpool £489.9m (£533m)
  6. Emirates Marketing Project £481.6m (£538.2m)
  7. Paris St-Germain £474.1m (£560.5m)
  8. Chelsea £411.9m (£452.2m)
  9. Tottenham £390.9m (£459.3m)
  10. Juventus £349m (£405.2m)
  11. Arsenal £340.3m (£392.7,m)
  12. Borussia Dortmund £320.7m (£332.4m)
  13. Atletico Madrid £291m (£324m)
  14. Inter Milan £255.6m (£321.3m)
  15. Zenit St Petersburg £207.4m (£159m)
  16. Schalke £195.4m (£286.3m)
  17. Everton £185.9m (£185.5m)
  18. Lyon £158.5m (£194.7m)
  19. Napoli £154.6m (£182.8m)
  20. Eintracht Frankfurt £152.6m (£160.6m)
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And that was with us having CL revenue. Arsenal might go back above us this season.

So (assuming Arsenal do stay below us) we have remained the same size in relation to our own league and moved up in European terms off the back of general PL income growth experienced by every PL club. As I’ve said a few times Levy has done a reasonable job.
 
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Jurgen the German said:
Tough one tbh I’m struggling but the one that comes to mind is Dortmund under Klopp. Granted their league isn’t as competitive but they finished above Bayern more than once and won the league and the German cup. I accept this is not a like for like example but it’s not an unreasonable comparison IMO.

I do agree you need a squad to win things but the problem I have with your hypothesis is that you seem to believe that the players and Poch couldn’t have done anymore, that is where I fundamentally disagree. We didn’t turn up in big games for the most part despite what people think and whilst Poch was partly responsible for getting us to a certain point, the fact that we didn’t get over the line is also in part down to him. He made weird decisions in big games and was too loyal to some of the players IMO of course.

I believe we thrived when we were under the radar and no one expected much of us. But when it come to win or go home games/games where we win and go top we usually died. I’d accept the squad needed improving but there were definitely games for me that we drew or lost that were 400% about bottle.
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Pretty sure they had the second highest budget in Germany.... Is a bit like Chelsea or Man Utd winning trophies here.
 
Bishop said:
With some luck or some better decisions here and there then sure we could have won a cup. But we failed ultimately because the team often performed at its maximum and any slight deviation from that form and committment was massively detrimental because we didn't have much headroom in terms of capability.

I say it all the time but you have to remember the side relied solely on Eriksen as it's creative heartbeat. You'll be hard pressed to find any other side that has won major competitions with just a single creative player in the starting 11 and pretty much in the entire squad. If Eriksen wasn't on song we were stuffed, in the big games the opposition managers who cottoned on just pressed Eriksen and stifiled our attacking plans.

That's why last season the introduction of Lo Celso and Ndombele was so necessary. The side needed more creativity back in Poch's heyday and that's why we often came up short, in both those games against low block defenses and high pressure high profile matches versus our peers in the big 6.
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Eriksen (and Dele) still actually delivered quite often in those big games....
 
Finney Is Back said:
City have had money pumped in and Leeds have collapsed. Net zero.
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We would have far surpassed Chelsea without them lucking into oil money too.

We managed not to collapse. That counts as overtaking Leeds too. Given that we spent time with Redknapp as manager, that's a massive achievement.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Fair enough, but there definitely games for me that we drew or lost that weren’t about the squad, they were 400% about bottle. We thrived when we were under the radar. When it became time to deliver we usually fell short.
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Ok so please outline those games and explain what you would have down differently. You keep making the same criticism and claiming Poch got everything wrong in those games. Being disappointed that we lost those games doesn't mean we should have won those games.
 
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Finney Is Back said:
Eriksen (and Dele) still actually delivered quite often in those big games....
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I don't consider Dele a creative element. He needs creators around him to thrive so we still had the same problem of shut Eriksen off and nothing was happening.

Edit:

And you're right they did still deliver but at a handicap compared to what City, United, Chelsea and latterly Liverpool have had. They all had a working system like we did but they had the squad full of players to perform. We never did.
 
scaramanga said:
We would have far surpassed Chelsea without them lucking into oil money too.
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Maybe.... they were above us when Levy took over and they still are.
As I have said many times we are exactly where we were relative to our direct peers now as we were when Levy came in. He has therefore done a reasonable job
 
Leicester have had a load of investment too, and didn’t they get away with some sketchy championship FFP stuff not that long ago.
 
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