Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[glorygloryeze]

Liv



By the same token I've never heard any journo give klopp the brick poch gets for getting knocked out of cups or failing to live upto expectations in the league.

Actually they have but as you say less than Pochettino probably overall due to the higher presence of scousers in the pundit-world.
Regardless of that, Klopp HAS taken his teams closer to winning trophies than Poch so he might naturally get more leeway anayway, though if Liverpool fail to win a trophy again he'll be under the microscope more this summer (would have been much MUCH more than Poch if he hadn't said we he said on Sunday)

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Thanks for posting that transcript Nayim, that’s the first time I’ve seen these quotes, I kind of switched off from football for a bit after the Chelsea semi final. Not sure what there is in those quotes to be upset about, or certainly anything the club needs to clarify/apologize to the fans for? But maybe the media has twisted the words a bit and stirred up trouble in their reporting which has caused this reaction by some on here?

 

[nayenezgani]

Thanks for posting that transcript Nayim, that’s the first time I’ve seen these quotes, I kind of switched off from football for a bit after the Chelsea semi final. Not sure what there is in those quotes to be upset about, or certainly anything the club needs to clarify/apologize to the fans for? But maybe the media has twisted the words a bit and stirred up trouble in their reporting which has caused this reaction by some on here?

Unfortunately some of our fans refuse to read or even listen for that matter.

Their minds are made up even before buying into the narrative/agenda the media (both news and social) create.

Would be wonderful if more of us could think for ourselves, unfortunately it's only going to get worse before it gets better, as a global issue I mean.

 

[glorygloryeze]

And for the record i disagree with Poch re whether a trophy will take us to the next level or not: In our situation i believe it absolutely will - in more ways than one.
But there we go...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Thanks for posting that transcript Nayim, that’s the first time I’ve seen these quotes, I kind of switched off from football for a bit after the Chelsea semi final. Not sure what there is in those quotes to be upset about, or certainly anything the club needs to clarify/apologize to the fans for? But maybe the media has twisted the words a bit and stirred up trouble in their reporting which has caused this reaction by some on here?

I saw it post match and didnt think much of it. Should have known it would be turned into yet another drama.

I dont think the media help, they do try to recontextualise things for sensational headlines, but really fans should be sensible enough to know better and yet they just seem to get swept up with the SSN flimflam...

And for the record i disagree with Poch re whether a trophy will take us to the next level or not: In our situation i believe it absolutely will - in more ways than one.
But there we go...

I guess the question is "What is the next level"?

Poch is right in that to win a cup requires some luck.

IMO the league is a real mark of quality, to finish top after 38 games is massive. Equally, the CL is a mark of quality. Yes, some luck plays a part, but you have to get out of the group first and the general quality of opposition is very high once you get out of there.

"Next level", for me, is doing better in these competitions, as its a real mark of quality. And I think, by default, teams do better in the other competitions by virtue of building a squad capable of going for the EPL/CL (which, of course, EPL and CL participation reward clubs enough to do so).

So I can see the logic in continued CL football taking a club to the next level. It has been proven many times over.

I cannot see logic in winning the FA cup doing so. And would point to all the non-CL teams that have won the FA and League cups over the years and ask - did they go to the next level? We certainly didnt in 2008.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I saw it post match and didnt think much of it. Should have known it would be turned into yet another drama.

I dont think the media help, they do try to recontextualise things for sensational headlines, but really fans should be sensible enough to know better and yet they just seem to get swept up with the SSN flimflam...




I guess the question is "What is the next level"?

Poch is right in that to win a cup requires some luck.

IMO the league is a real mark of quality, to finish top after 38 games is massive. Equally, the CL is a mark of quality. Yes, some luck plays a part, but you have to get out of the group first and the general quality of opposition is very high once you get out of there.

"Next level", for me, is doing better in these competitions, as its a real mark of quality. And I think, by default, teams do better in the other competitions by virtue of building a squad capable of going for the EPL/CL (which, of course, EPL and CL participation reward clubs enough to do so).

So I can see the logic in continued CL football taking a club to the next level. It has been proven many times over.

I cannot see logic in winning the FA cup doing so. And would point to all the non-CL teams that have won the FA and League cups over the years and ask - did they go to the next level? We certainly didnt in 2008.

Next level to mne for us right now is remaining top 4 AND winning a trophy. Winning ANY trophy is luck. In fact, perhaps winning any game is luck.
Winning a tournament, whether that be FA Cup or CL is luck but is also how you match-up vs the top clubs in that tournament. The tactical match-ups, those moments that you make a slight tweak here or there. Or indeed that bit of luck.
We have finished top 3 for 3 seasons now and that is certainly good progress, though not guaranteed to continue: we have a competitive league. It's not even guaranteed we'd finish top 4 this year - or any year.
One is certainly more confident of us doing so that in previous seasons.

Winning the FA Cup or league cup or CL whilst also finishing top 4 would be a major boost for the players, the club and a GREAT signpost for players we want to attract. Getting over the line in winning such might also mean we are more likely to get over the line in the competitions that we really want to win.
We had a crap team in 2008 so that could always be considered part of a 'flash in the pan' event, though it could also that the belief of being able to beat Chelsea and Arsenal in winning that cup helped us two years later in believing we could beat them in consecutive games on our way to finishing 4th and qualifying for the CL.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

From the Matt Law piece linked on an earlier page (some extracts, bolded parts mine) :

Mauricio Pochettino will not receive opposition from anybody at Tottenham Hotspur – least of all chairman Daniel Levy – over his assessment that trophies build egos and Champions League qualification and participation builds the club.
Pochettino stirred up the debate over whether or not he and Spurs need to win a trophy, following the FA Cup defeat to Crystal Palace just a few days after their Carabao Cup elimination to Chelsea.
Critics claim Pochettino needs to win a trophy to prove himself one of the best managers in the world, but that is not a view shared by Levy or the Tottenham board.
Having become a Champions League club without the revenues of the rest of the Premier League’s top six, Spurs need the Champions League income if they are to make what they consider to be the final step.

Wining the FA Cup is worth £6.6 million, while qualifying for the last 16 of the Champions League, which Tottenham have done under Pochettino this season, is worth around £70m.
But Pochettino’s belief, and that of Levy and Tottenham, is not simply determined by figures and balance sheets.

It was pointed out in some quarters over the weekend that Tottenham used to be known as a ‘cup team’ and that is exactly what they want to avoid falling back into.
While the ambition is to win trophies, Spurs do not want to lift a cup every 10 years or so and experience inconsistent league seasons in the meantime.
That is best highlighted by the fact that Tottenham were in danger of being relegated and had to sack former manager Juande Ramos in the season following their last trophy success in 2008.

Levy’s vision is for Tottenham to become one of the super-clubs that regularly compete for and win top honours, but there is an acceptance that will take time and money.
Like his manager, Levy judges the success or failure of Spurs over the course of a 38-game Premier League season. He is wary to get too excited by cup runs, which rely in part on the luck of the draw, and will not panic because of elimination.

There is also no great fear that failing to win the Carabao Cup or the FA Cup will make it harder for Tottenham to hang on to their stars. While Harry Kane has made no secret of his desire to win his first piece of silverware, playing in the Champions League is rated as a bigger factor in keeping and signing players.

Levy has never put any pressure on Pochettino to achieve all of the clubs goals at once and the Argentine has been proved right in his assessment that this season would be his biggest challenge.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...o-backed-chairman-daniel-levy-spurs-continue/

We are a club with a plan and a pathway mapped out to realise that plan. A domestic cup would be nice to win, but not doing so does not derail, or even hinder, what the club is trying to achieve.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Next level to mne for us right now is remaining top 4 AND winning a trophy. Winning ANY trophy is luck. In fact, perhaps winning any game is luck.
Winning a tournament, whether that be FA Cup or CL is luck but is also how you match-up vs the top clubs in that tournament. The tactical match-ups, those moments that you make a slight tweak here or there. Or indeed that bit of luck.
We have finished top 3 for 3 seasons now and that is certainly good progress, though not guaranteed to continue: we have a competitive league. It's not even guaranteed we'd finish top 4 this year - or any year.
One is certainly more confident of us doing so that in previous seasons.

Winning the FA Cup or league cup or CL whilst also finishing top 4 would be a major boost for the players, the club and a GREAT signpost for players we want to attract. Getting over the line in winning such might also mean we are more likely to get over the line in the competitions that we really want to win.
We had a crap team in 2008 so that could always be considered part of a 'flash in the pan' event, though it could also that the belief of being able to beat Chelsea and Arsenal in winning that cup helped us two years later in believing we could beat them in consecutive games on our way to finishing 4th and qualifying for the CL.

There are degrees of luck in any competition, but its not the same.

You can win the FA cup by beating one good team. You certainly cant say that about the CL, you dont get out of the group if you beat only one good team.

I can understand the idea of a boost to mentality in winning, though Id argue we now go and play Chelsea, Arsenal, Utd etc - and win. Home or away. Whether its been noticed or not, we have been building that winning mentality and getting results from it without cup wins.

I genuinely dont think we will attract a player of the quality required because we won the League or FA cup. I dont think it would even register as a point of interest. "Oh you won the FA cup? Right, Ill sign for you then!" not going to happen. "Oh, youre in the CL? Well now Im interested..." is much more like it.

As we well know from all the players that passed us over while we were in the Europa league.

It is a well worn, and proven, path. Top 4 = CL = money = better players = more top 4 = more CL = more money = a squad capable of winning on 4 fronts.

It has never been proven to be that an FA or League cup win suddenly makes a team "next level". Its more a signpost on the way to success, a marker of progress. If taken in the context of an over all journey and not a one off.

 

[billyiddo]

I think the difference is that Liverpool are currently sitting top of the league, having played a near flawless campaign so far in the league and Klopp has reached 2 European finals in his time ( as well as a domestic final I think). He's also won the league in Germany, a couple of cups and again, reached the CL final.

There's also the fact that the sports media in the UK is infested with previous Liverpool pundits so they do get a bit of an easier ride in general.

I think Poch is a bit too honest for his own good with some of these comments and ultimately gets a bit of stick from some for (seemingly) dismissing domestic trophies, having never won any himself and having not come close to winning either of the big 2 he talks about winning.

Is that fair? Potentially, potentially not.
Does that mean that anyone who doesn't like him saying it wants him out? No, I'd say there are a tiny minority of Spurs fans who think anything like that and I think it is unfair that Spurs fans who say they want to win some domestic trophies (and that in the past 3 years, we maybe should have won at least 1) are sometimes dismissed as fans who have fallen for the media narrative and can't think for themselves.

What Klopp done prior to being at Liverpool is neither here nor there with regards to the conversation that was being had - gg said one of us and Liverpool were trying to win trophies (not us) when it was pointed out Liverpool played weakened teams in the cups this season (ie not trying to win), which is the same thing he is using as a stick to beat Pochettino with, he moved the goalposts.

Liverpool playing better than us doesnt mean they are trying to win anymore than we are - nor does the fact they have had more money invested in the team - we're different clubs working in different circumstances.

 

[glorygloryeze]

There are degrees of luck in any competition, but its not the same.

Indeed

You can win the FA cup by beating one good team. You certainly cant say that about the CL, you dont get out of the group if you beat only one good team.

One could say we just did that very thing this season

I can understand the idea of a boost to meteorology in winning, though Id argue we now go and play Chelsea, Arsenal, Utd etc - and win. Home or away. Whether its been noticed or not, we have been building that winning meteorology and getting results from it without cup wins.

It could be argued that upward trajectory, particularly believing we can beat the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea started with 2008; yes Poch has certainly added to that..

I genuinely dont think we will attract a player of the quality required because we won the League or FA cup. I dont think it would even register as a point of interest. "Oh you won the FA cup? Right, Ill sign for you then!" not going to happen. "Oh, youre in the CL? Well now Im interested..." is much more like it.

There are others in top 4 we are competing against, plus 2/3 who miss out. They tend to win the cups and at a point to persuade those who would push us forward to join us and not our direct rivals we will have to show we can do that same. Or pay more than they do, but that means we would have a lesser USP..

As we well know from all the players that passed us over while we were in the Europa league.

It is a well worn, and proven, path. Top 4 = CL = money = better players = more top 4 = more CL = more money = a squad capable of winning on 4 fronts.

It has never been proven to be that an FA or League cup win suddenly makes a team "next level". Its more a signpost on the way to success, a marker of progress. If taken in the context of an over all journey and not a one off.

Indeed it is a well-worn path, but more money with CL will have to equal more trophies (or at least more likelihood). There is no magic day when a club can sit up and say "ok today i think we can actually try and win the FA Cup now"...and when trying to attract the players to take us to the next level don't we want them to have a mindstate to want to win ALL the trophies? We wont be able to attract such if we publicly dismiss half of the trophies we could win

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

The Winning Mentality thing is a weird media narrative as well, roughly our squad has won over 20 Cup competitions, 1, African Cup Nations, 2 World Cups, 2 Champs League, 6 European Cups and 20 League titles including in Spain, France, Holland

Not saying it would be much different in other top 6 squads but its not like these are a load of cobbled together journeymen

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

It could be argued that upward trajectory, particularly believing we can beat the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea started with 2008; yes Poch has certainly added to that..

If you want to have that argument, I would suggest it more to be when Redknapp came in. He was the difference much more than a League cup win. And even then, while he started taking points his record wasnt actually great. He got the ball rolling though, IMO, and Poch has taken it on leaps and bounds since.

There are others in top 4 we are competing against, plus 2/3 who miss out. They tend to win the cups and at a point to persuade those who would push us forward to join us and not our direct rivals we will have to show we can do that same. Or pay more than they do, but that means we would have a lesser USP..

You made the point yourself. MONEY and not League/FA cup wins in the past, will be more a defining factor. That and CL participation - because thats where the "stage" is. And, for the clubs, thats where the money comes from to pay the wages.

Regular CL participation really is the defining point, not "we won the FA cup 2 years ago".

Indeed it is a well-worn path, but more money with CL will have to equal more trophies (or at least more likelihood). There is no magic day when a club can sit up and say "ok today i think we can actually try and win the FA Cup now"...and when trying to attract the players to take us to the next level don't we want them to have a mindstate to want to win ALL the trophies? We wont be able to attract such if we publicly dismiss half of the trophies we could win

I dont think, for a moment, we are actively NOT trying to win things. Thats a very odd perspective that gets thrown around on here a lot. We have been in 3 semi finals in the last 3 seasons. Have a look at the numbers of participants etc and work out the odds on that happening if we werent "trying".

Nobody is arguing we are actively passing off the cups so we can get CL and one day switch on competitiveness in the cups. Nobody, but plenty seem to be arguing against that idea.

All is really being said is that the League and CL have to take priority in the case where such decisions need to be made.

And even then - we went out of two cups this week - both games we had a team strong enough to win. Sometimes in competitive sport you just happen to lose, it doesnt mean its to plan or deliberate.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Nobody is saying going out is deliberate @nayimfromthehalfwayline but as i say there comes a tipping point if we are trying to achieve PL/CL than we need to be like our competitors (who also want the same) and win a cup. It has been shown that top 4/6 teams overwhelmingly win the cups and we need to be part of that narrative and quit giving excuses as to why we are not.
If we do not win the cups, well that's football, but we should not dismiss it or think it is 'beneath us' (because it really isn't)

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Nobody is saying going out is deliberate @nayimfromthehalfwayline but as i say there comes a tipping point if we are trying to achieve PL/CL than we need to be like our competitors (who also want the same) and win a cup. It has been shown that top 4/6 teams overwhelmingly win the cups and we need to be part of that narrative and quit giving excuses as to why we are not.
If we do not win the cups, well that's football, but we should not dismiss it or think it is 'beneath us' (because it really isn't)

And who exactly says its beneath us? Or dismisses them?

This is my point. You are arguing against something that simply isnt there.

You are arguing as if we have chosen to not compete in the cups. 3 semi finals in the last 3 years says otherwise, as doest basic common sense.

Pochs own words - he is really disappointed. Hows that for not caring?

Why cant it be as simple as - we are doing the best we can and have come up short. As 99% of clubs do in these competitions every year.

 

[nayenezgani]

And who exactly says its beneath us? Or dismisses them?

This is my point. You are arguing against something that simply isnt there.

You are arguing as if we have chosen to not compete in the cups. 3 semi finals in the last 3 years says otherwise, as doest basic common sense.

Pochs own words - he is really disappointed. Hows that for not caring?

Why cant it be as simple as - we are doing the best we can and have come up short. As 99% of clubs do in these competitions every year.

Time to stop bashing your head against the brick wall mate, you're giving him what he wants.

 

[harr1984]

Nobody is saying going out is deliberate @nayimfromthehalfwayline but as i say there comes a tipping point if we are trying to achieve PL/CL than we need to be like our competitors (who also want the same) and win a cup. It has been shown that top 4/6 teams overwhelmingly win the cups and we need to be part of that narrative and quit giving excuses as to why we are not.
If we do not win the cups, well that's football, but we should not dismiss it or think it is 'beneath us' (because it really isn't)

I'd agree with you if Poch genuinely dismissed the cups - But I dont think he does. His comments have been taken out of proportion and were probably some sort of attempt to diffuse this need to win a cup narrative. There will be a point when we have to win trophies to kick on, but that time isnt yet. Poch and Levy have just built our base, in the coming years Id expect us to become much more competitive in the trophy count.....

 

[glorygloryeze]

And who exactly says its beneath us? Or dismisses them?

This is my point. You are arguing against something that simply isnt there.

You are arguing as if we have chosen to not compete in the cups. 3 semi finals in the last 3 years says otherwise, as doest basic common sense.

Pochs own words - he is really disappointed. Hows that for not caring?

Why cant it be as simple as - we are doing the best we can and have come up short. As 99% of clubs do in these competitions every year.

If Poch had simply said "We tried but unfortunately we came up short, oh well, we keep trying" that's all he needed to say.

Saying "Again we're going to have the debate whether a trophy will take the club to the next level. I don't agree with it. It only builds your ego" was wrong imo.
Much like anyone saying "being in the top 4 and continually not winning anything only builds your ego" would/could have equally been dismissed.

As i say, at some point not winning a trophy cannot be dismissed like that. Certainly not after the number of years he has been in the job now. The discussion could be: mat what point DOES he have to win a trophy, but perhaps that's a discussion for another day..

As i say if all he had to say was what he did minus the above then i would have been absolutely fine.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I'd agree with you if Poch genuinely dismissed the cups - But I dont think he does. His comments have been taken out of proportion and were probably some sort of attempt to diffuse this need to win a cup narrative. There will be a point when we have to win trophies to kick on, but that time isnt yet. Poch and Levy have just built our base, in the coming years Id expect us to become much more competitive in the trophy count.....

I don't think he does either in his actions overall, which is why i was disappointed in the words, which belie someone who has been trying to change the outlook and mindstate of the club since he started, i.e. to act like a big club.
A big club attempts to win all trophies (with varying degrees of efforts and use of available resources of course for each trophy of course) and like you say, at some oint we are going to have to win a trophy both to justify our methods AND to advertise ourselves as a club that players who want the same (i.e. trophies AND the big money that comes with it) can and should join.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Anyway, thanks for the back and forth @nayimfromthehalfwayline and @Glenda's Legs et al...i'll leave it here for now.

Let's all hope we have as good an end to the season as possible, stay in he top 3/4 and beat Dortmund. COYS

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Nobody is saying going out is deliberate @nayimfromthehalfwayline but as i say there comes a tipping point if we are trying to achieve PL/CL than we need to be like our competitors (who also want the same) and win a cup. It has been shown that top 4/6 teams overwhelmingly win the cups and we need to be part of that narrative and quit giving excuses as to why we are not.
If we do not win the cups, well that's football, but we should not dismiss it or think it is 'beneath us' (because it really isn't)

Stop quoting ''beneath us' and ''cups are for peasents' ....I take it they are you're words?.....and just for effect?

This is a journey thing again. We are working towards the position that City Chelsea Man U are in and quite probably Liverpool are arriving in. The position where all 4 cups are doable.

I say Liverpool are arriving in, as like us they have been trophy starved but this season, looking very good for the title, Klopp looks at his priorities and thinks League cup/fa cup, nope, full focus on this title challenge, it's ours to lose.

We are doing exactly the same. Out comes the priorities list, and due to our immediate circumstances, we cut our cloth accordingly.

With respect you know nothing about our finances. We have an £850m capital project as a temporary anchor on our progress. We have to respect the risk that brings with it. It forms our priorities.

The (unbareable) journey will continue and we will, if the guidance is good, end up at that place where we can, unhindered, push forward on all 4 fronts every season.

And everyone will be happy.

Amen.