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Maanger Sack watch 18/19

Discussion in 'General Football' started by nayimfromthehalfwayline, 6 Aug 2018.

  1. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Les Ferdinand

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    BFS should have done more with Everton, arguably Sunderland, and Blackburn, definitely England ;):D

    Moyes was solid, and no more at Everton. Did well early on to build them up and weather a few storms, but by the time he left he was the thing holding them back - not a lack of resource or such. His tactics, his lack of ambition, the lack of evolution in the side. Had an Everton mate who at the time was delighted 'dithering Dave' went.

    Of the two I think Allardyce is the better manager, and has come much closer to genuine achievement with his sides than Moyes. Moyes reputation defies belief and doesnt stand any real scrutiny
     
    Gazza Dazzla likes this.
  2. Jordinho

    Jordinho Clive Allen Staff Member

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    Jokanovic has turned down Stoke.
     
  3. Lost Mango

    Lost Mango Gus Poyet

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    Still better then Hughes or Pardew though.
     
  4. MKSpur

    MKSpur Kasey Keller

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    BFS took Everton up the table to 8th, with an unbalanced team put together by Koeman and only had 6 months. Not sure Silva will better his finish spending money and having a full season and pre season. Blackburn were doing fine and then Keen went telling to stories to the owners and set the club into a downward spiral. Sunderland he kept up with less than a full season above their rivals and they were relegated under Moyes rock bottom the following year. Arguably Newcastle was his big chance but his (big) face didn’t fit and we now know what a dysfunctional club they are under Ashley.

    I know he has made himself unlikeable for other reasons but any club wanting to try and avoid relegation, in a fire fighting situation or in the longer term finish mid table in the prem without concerns over the style of football he’s your man. Anyone with loftier ambitions of taking a club into the top 6 playing tika taka need look elsewhere, although it’s been a long time since that has happened.
     
  5. nayenezgani

    nayenezgani Teemu Tainio

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    I hope Stoke stay down as long as possible, fudging toothless, rugby club clams.

    Rowett deserves to be managing in league one or two now too. Karma's a bitch.
     
    scaramanga likes this.
  6. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Les Ferdinand

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    Would you say Everton did as well as they could under him? Or that it was a very compromised stint, and that there was more in the tank? Id suggest the latter, hence my point they hit the managers peak and not the clubs.

    Its similar with other examples. Redknapp with us is one where I felt the same.

    Thats not to try and slag BFS off, I actually think he is alright. I just think there is a limitation to what he can do.

    Moyes I think is infinitely worse, and to be honest I did BFS a bit of a disservice lumping them together.
     
  7. Jordinho

    Jordinho Clive Allen Staff Member

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  8. Dicko

    Dicko Gudni Bergsson

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    Why not just wait and try to get Luton promoted and have that on your CV, Instead of going to Stoke and earning more money for 4 months before they sack you because you haven't magically got them back up challenging for promotion.
     
  9. galeforce

    galeforce Garth Crooks

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    You answered your own question there, more money.
     
  10. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Les Ferdinand

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    Didnt see that one coming.

    Says a lot for Moyes when even the like of Stoke would rather take a punt on a lower league manager!
     
  11. parklane1

    parklane1 Nayim

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    Always thought Moyes was a crap manager so i am not surprised they never went for him.
     
  12. MKSpur

    MKSpur Kasey Keller

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    I think it’s hard to truly judge his Everton stint, especially as a failure as it was short and he improved on his predecessor and doesn’t look like he will have done worse than his successor with more investment and a full season. I’m not sure how Everton can bust the top 6 let alone top 4 but it would need a Poch type and at least three seasons. The fans didn’t want him there and if style of football is everything then that’s fair enough. If he’d had a full season and they were sitting fourth I’m sure all would be forgetten but I’d say realistically I can’t see anyone doing much better than I think he could have done. On paper Allardyce is a chairman’s wet dream as he almost guarantees a performance level, unfortunately fans of some of the clubs felt the opposite before he arrived. Football entertainment wise he’s mourinho with a budget.

    Redknapp I feel similarly defensive about, he took us up a level getting CL and the football was attacking, in his only opportunity at a big club. Is he really that different to Klopp, as in he’d have bought van Dijk to shore up the back line rather than make Lovren a better player and just encourage players to get the ball forward quickly? Also think he should have got the England job, he would have got the players relaxed and playing a simple game to their strengths like Venables. There’s no doubt Hodgson is a great coach but his methods don’t transcend to the big time Charlie’s, whereas Redknapp knows how to play to their egos and get the best out of them. VdV given a free role, the signing of Gallas and Benny’s consistency at lb.
    In defending their achievements and lack of opportunities towards the end of their careers, it is notable that Sam threw away his biggest opportunity almost instantly out of sheer greed (nothing like that reputable Swedish chap eh?!) and redknapp’s tax avoidance and bringing a super agent in to negotiate a new deal did him no favours when his stock was at its highest.

    As you can tell it’s a topic that intrigues me - a chicken and egg situation. Could Allardyce win the league with Emirates Marketing Project and could Pep have kept the likes of Sunderland up? Even Moyes who looked to have proved the theory about it being the managers peak didn’t do much worse than a than his big name successor, who spent more and had more time. Moyes two big signings are still very much part of the team too!

    Of the current crop of British (ed. and Irish) managers I wonder where Hughton or Howe can go next, the difference between finishing tenth and seventh seems minimal to me in terms of career advancement.
     
  13. MKSpur

    MKSpur Kasey Keller

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    Stoke have the resources to be a prem team, fantastic as he’d done at Luton it’s hard to think of how much further he could have taken them. It’s a much bigger gap then say Rowett jumping ship from Frank Lampard’s Derby County.
     
  14. galeforce

    galeforce Garth Crooks

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    I think BFS with City’s budget would be a guaranteed league title 99 times out of a 100.
     
  15. monkeybarry

    monkeybarry Vedran Corluka

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    Because Luton is one of the few places more grim than Stoke?
     
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  16. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Les Ferdinand

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    Allardyce at Everton Ill give you, probably unfair to call him on that one. It was originally a pretty flippant comment that seems to be set to bite me on the ass though.

    Redknapp I contest. I think he failed the club and was ultimately not good enough.
    I agree he could have done well with England. I do think though he should have done so much more with us.
    His limitations were showing, badly, and that early momentum was failing. We needed more structure, proper tactics, a real identity - and had surpassed his "just put good players in and let them play" methodology.
    We got as far as we did under him, IMO, because the players were that good, not because he was.
    Essentially he managed us in the same way he did West Ham, Pompey, QPR... and how did that go?
     
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  17. MKSpur

    MKSpur Kasey Keller

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    It’s not to say Allardyce doesn’t have a ceiling, I just think because he’s seen as Mike Bassett he’s never really had the time to prove / disprove it. Which is why he’s chippy about it too. If he could have kept himself clean the England job might have been a platform for him to get a bigger job after, it like I say little sympathy for blowing it. Managers are more and more the corporate face of the club too, same as top positions in other large orgs and sometimes you need to carry yourself in a way to be thought of in those circles (occasionally masking the inability to actually do the job!)

    With Redknapp, he took us to 4th twice which no one else had managed and a CL qf. Losing Modric was a blow and what I would have liked to have seen was how he’s done the following season, as if we’d dropped down to 6th or lower than firing him would have been more for footballing reasons and then given his replacement an easier platform to come from, I.e. improving on that finish as opposed to coming 4th again.

    Re the squad itself, it’s a difficult one for me as some of the players weren’t so good before or after, but I won’t deny Redknapp is short term in his thinking and a self publicist. Before he came I always liked his quips and persona but when it’s your club it seems unprofessional.

    Re the other jobs he had, I don’t know all the details but from memory he did well for West Ham but fell out with the chairman, Pompey achieved some great things but the club was being mismanaged financially so he has as much repsonsibility for their current situation as O’Leary has for Leeds’) QPR however were a mess when he got there and probably even more of a mess when he left!

    Just out if interest what’s your opinion of AVB?
     
  18. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Les Ferdinand

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    I think Redknapp wasnt structured enough. He simply let the players play their game, when it worked it worked wonders, when it didnt work we were disjointed, all at sea, and had no foundation to fall back on. We were crying out for a shape, for some tactics drilled into us, a platform and structure to play from.

    AVB represented that. And I think at the beginning, did well. I think people forget the results were solid and he really got the best out of Bale over time. Though, the longer he was here the more and more rigid in his system he became. Especially as results turned a bit, he seemed to double down on it. Essentially, the anti-Redknapp. If one was far to relaxed about these things, the other was far too overbearing.

    Ignoring the farce that was Sherwood (still, IMO, a case of giving him the rope to hang himself), that leads to Pochettino.

    Who, if I were to "in a nutshell" his style, Id say is the perfect mid-point between Redknapp and AVB.

    He has the clear and defined structure. Our shape is well drilled, and on those days that its not going our way that very foundation regularly see's us to results. Exactly what I wanted from Redknapp.

    But, at the same time, he expects the players to play with freedom, to take risks, and to express themselves. Something Redknapp really was good at and ultimately was the failing that lost AVB his job.
     
    SteveAWOL, MKSpur and K.D.D.D.D.Soc like this.
  19. MKSpur

    MKSpur Kasey Keller

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    Yes we definitely had the two extremes with Redknapp and AvB. Whilst I wasn’t a fan of AVB before he came I think he would have benefitted from being a number 2 with a reasonably free reign on the coaching side and then as he gained experience he might have developed some more flexibility / man management skills. By the same token Redknapp would have benefitted from younger modern coaches to run that side of the job for him as opposed to his trusted cronies. I think AF took a similar approach at United. Thinking about it BMJ was a man manager who came up tactically short and Ramos was a strict disciplinarian! Someone told me once that in his first team meeting Redknapp put a bottle of ketchup on the table and said something along the lines of ‘here you go lads!’

    Even Sherwood who I know is a dirty word on here had some strengths, he was brave in trusting youth players including giving Kane a run in the team and managed to get Ade and Benteke firing at least. I don’t need to list his weaknesses though!

    The thing Poch has over most of the managers we’ve had is he manages to command respect and discipline without alienating players and his performances in press conferences is a joy to behold.
     
  20. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Les Ferdinand

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    A Redknapp AVB dream team could have worked wonders actually.

    Im not a Redknapp fan, and I dont look at his tenure as the success many people do - but he undeniably has strengths, which I think would have balanced AVBs weaknesses and vice-versa, its a good shout.

    I dont think Sherwood had strengths to be honest, I just think he was reckless. He threw those young players in to prove a point, not, IMO, because they were necessarily ready/worthy. He was gambling with them.

    Poch has that knack for making them believers, once he gets that he has all he needs to get his way on the field
     
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