Kyle Walker

[NaijaSpurs]

Yeah I agree, CAPABLE of winning trophies but we have nothing to back that up with right now. Poch has won nothing, we are classic nearly men and players have a short career. Walker is in his prime and can't afford to gamble with our potential vs City who are virtually guaranteed at least a couple of trophies during his next few years here. We really do need to win something if not this season then next, otherwise I fear for Dele and Kane leaving....

Now this is a sentiment I agree with

 

[billyiddo]

It's just too easy to say players just go there for the money, or anywhere for that matter. As I already said the biggest and most successful clubs pay the biggest wages. Players would pick City ahead of us not just because of the money. You ask a foreign player who's the more successful club - they'd say City. They've consistently been in CL in recent years, won the FA Cup in recent years, have top European players in their team vs us who have won nothing in recent years and don't have renowned players. It's a bit fanciful to suggest City could only attract players ahead of us because of money, although yes obviously that helps....

But it's true - if City didn't have more money than us then no one would consider them more likely to win trophies in the coming years, how can't you see that?

 

[harr1984]

Do you really think if Poch had had the resources to say add a fit Gareth Bale to our team last season that we would not have been capable of winning the league?

Bearing in mind he has never managed a big club with unlimited spending power I think your comments are nothing but a speculative dig on Poch without any foundation in reality.

Lol a speculative dig? I love Poch. No more speculative than what you're suggesting. Point is it's a skill to manage a load of egos, and a different skill to nurture and develop young talent.....

 

[harr1984]

But it's true - if City didn't have more money than us then no one would consider them more likely to win trophies in the coming years, how can't you see that?

I thought originally we was discussing players going to City because they get paid more. If you're saying players are going to City because they have more money to spend in recruiting the best players then of course I agree....

 

[billyiddo]

Lol a speculative dig? I love Poch. No more speculative than what you're suggesting. Point is it's a skill to manage a load of egos, and a different skill to nurture and develop young talent.....

Definitely the case and Poch's style probablto wouldn't suit certain players - but I don't think that you can tar all superstar players with that brush - im sure there are plenty of big name players who would suit Poch's way of doing things.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Absolutely, everyone treats Poch like a GHod on here but would he be as good with a blank cheque book? I'm not so sure. His methods are better suited to young impressionable players, managing a few superstars could really cause him problems....

I love Poch. But agree it will be interesting when the financial shackles are off. For all we know it could be a completely different skill set and management style required.

Perhaps he'll be the first to succeed across the board.

I always feel that Wenger started to struggle once the fan base started ranting (and pressuring) him about not flashing the cash and getting readymade superstars on board.
He always appeared much happier developing the Henry's anelkas pieres lundbergs etc.

 

[billyiddo]

I thought originally we was discussing players going to City because they get paid more. If you're saying players are going to City because they have more money to spend in recruiting the best players then of course I agree....

My point was these players can win trophies here and will do if they stay together - but they don't just want to win trophies they want money as well and will leave a great team for a pay rise.

If City weren't offering more money I doubt Walker would be angling for a move and if we paid our players the same as the richest clubs they wouldn't even be thinking of leaving at this moment because we're on to a good thing here and this group of players are a match for anyone

 

[harr1984]

Definitely the case and Poch's style probablto wouldn't suit certain players - but I don't think that you can tar all superstar players with that brush - im sure there are plenty of big name players who would suit Poch's way of doing things.

I agree and Najas reference to Bale is a player who would have thrived under Poch as think had the right attitude. But I don't think it's a given Poch would be so comfortable if he was at say a Emirates Marketing Project or Chelsea. Think we are perfect for him in that we are a big club but a bit of an underdog still with limited pressure....

 

[harr1984]

I love Poch. But agree it will be interesting when the financial shackles are off. For all we know it could be a completely different skill set and management style required.

Perhaps he'll be the first to succeed across the board.

I always feel that Wenger started to struggle once the fan base started ranting (and pressuring) him about not flashing the cash and getting readymade superstars on board.
He always appeared much happier developing the Henry's anelkas pieres lundbergs etc.

That Wenger point is interesting and something I hadn't really considered. A good example....

 

[harr1984]

My point was these players can win trophies here and will do if they stay together - but they don't just want to win trophies they want money as well and will leave a great team for a pay rise

That's your opinion and that's fine mate, I just think players would go to City believing there's more chance of winning things there. I agree if team stays together we will win things, but I really think there's only one season, two at a stretch left of us keeping majority of squad together without winning anything....

 

[billyiddo]

I love Poch. But agree it will be interesting when the financial shackles are off. For all we know it could be a completely different skill set and management style required.

Perhaps he'll be the first to succeed across the board.

I always feel that Wenger started to struggle once the fan base started ranting (and pressuring) him about not flashing the cash and getting readymade superstars on board.
He always appeared much happier developing the Henry's anelkas pieres lundbergs etc.

Funny I see it differently with Wenger - he and Arsenal were at their best when he was buying players which had already developed elsewhere and we're approaching their peak years (Campbell Vieira Henry Ljunberg Pires Petit Overmars Bergkamp eyc) it's when he started to buy and rely on players which needed developing after those initial years that things went south for him - think he bought in to the Barcelona mkII stiff which was flying around at the time and thought he could replicate that in England - they've looked much better since they were able to spend on proven players once again

 

[billyiddo]

That's your opinion and that's fine mate, I just think players would go to City believing there's more chance of winning things there. I agree if team stays together we will win things, but I really think there's only one season, two at a stretch left of us keeping majority of squad together without winning anything....

My view would be more along the lines of :

but I really think there's only one season, two at a stretch left of us keeping majority of squad together without paying them top wages

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

That Wenger point is interesting and something I hadn't really considered. A good example....

When you think about it , Wenger had the whole club aligned with the youth, reserves, first team playing his way. The youth would almost roll there way to the league cup final most years.
That's now all broken down, you never hear a thing about Arsenal youth, their academy or set-up.
The shame for Wenger he loved that set-up, developing a style, developing kids and improving or giving direction to below top level players. (pretty much where Poch is at) That landscape at Arsenal, for whatever reasons, has changed now and that's why he struggles. His identity has gone.

 

[harr1984]

My view would be more along the lines of :

but I really think there's only one season, two at a stretch left of us keeping majority of squad together without paying them top wages

Ha!

 

[billyiddo]

When you think about it , Wenger had the whole club aligned with the youth, reserves, first team playing his way. The youth would almost roll there way to the league cup final most years.
That's now all broken down, you never hear a thing about Arsenal youth, their academy or set-up.
The shame for Wenger he loved that set-up, developing a style, developing kids and improving or giving direction to below top level players. (pretty much where Poch is at) That landscape at Arsenal, for whatever reasons, has changed now and that's why he struggles. His identity has gone.

Personally i think It's a bloody fallacy that he was good at developing youth - they had a great youth scouting network and hoovered up a lot of the biggest names in youth football at the time but not many kicked on at all once there - he did focus on youth like no one else really did at the time tbf and had the right ideas but never really pulled it off - only really Fabregas I can think of who went there as a youth player and really excelled, Ashley Cole as an actual youth product too tbf but mostly their successful years were based on good transfers of players which went straight in to their first team - their academy players and youth signings largely failed to realise their supposed potential and their actual academy products haven't amounted to anything either during his era

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Funny I see it differently with Wenger - he and Arsenal were at their best when he was buying players which had already developed elsewhere and we're approaching their peak years (Campbell Vieira Henry Ljunberg Pires Petit Overmars Bergkamp eyc) it's when he started to buy and rely on players which needed developing after those initial years that things went south for him - think he bought in to the Barcelona mkII stiff which was flying around at the time and thought he could replicate that in England - they've looked much better since they were able to spend on proven players once again

If you think players like Viera Petit Henry Pieres ljundberg were near their peak or fully developed they certainly weren't (I'll give u Campbell and Bergkamp)......And I actually think Arsenal were playing tikka takka (and doing it well) long before barca mastered it.

 

[billyiddo]

If you think players like Viera Petit Henry Pieres ljundberg were near their peak or fully developed they certainly weren't (I'll give u Campbell and Bergkamp)......And I actually think Arsenal were playing tikka takka (and doing it well) long before barca mastered it.

They were mate they were just unknown at the time in England because the game here was very introverted - Wengers biggest success at the time was the scouting network he developed and his knowledge of football across the continent - as per my previous post you may have missed in over two decades of stewardship precious little youth talent has actually developed well at Arsenal and players rarely kick on there since those early years when he had an advantage through scouting the continent

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Personally i think It's a bloody fallacy that he was good at developing youth - they had a great youth scouting network and hoovered up a lot of the biggest names in youth football at the time but not many kicked on at all once there - he did focus on youth like no one else really did at the time tbf and had the right ideas but never really pulled it off - only really Fabregas I can think of who went there as a youth player and really excelled, Ashley Cole as an actual youth product too tbf but mostly their successful years were based on good transfers of players which went straight in to their first team - their academy players and youth signings largely failed to realise their supposed potential and their actual academy products haven't amounted to anything either during his era

Oh I agree but many don't go on to be great, my point was that he revelled in that top to bottom club setup and that's just not there now. (Dein leaving was another biggie though).

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I suppose we'll disagree on some of the details.

Kyle Walker then......





Bon chance ......fella

 

[billyiddo]

Oh I agree but many don't go on to be great, my point was that he revelled in that top to bottom club setup and that's just not there now. (Dein leaving was another biggie though).

Yeah I do agree with that but I think he has probably realised that precious little actually came through that bottom to top identity he developed so there was little reason to carry it on