Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[90291Spur]

Nah. Just the game that was the biggest I have ever been to in my life, that I had only seen at the time in the ground. Thought it might make for interesting conversation but hey-ho, no worries...

My reply was meant in jest, amigo. I’m glad you got to go and sad about the result. Worth watching again on the telly.

 

[thfcsteff]

My reply was meant in jest, amigo. I’m glad you got to go and sad about the result. Worth watching again on the telly.

Apologies mate. Understood!

 

[thfcsteff]

Where did you watch it (channel wise)
I’ve not watched it back yet but it may be soon I need some torture so may watch it

My wife DVR'd the whole thing including pre-match!

 

[Pirate55]

Sigh.
The committee bought them.
Do we really have to get back into Mane vs Njie, etc?!

Steff, You keep going on about the Committee buying these 27 players. As if somehow absolving Poch of all responsibility. Lets look at the Committee. It is commonly believed to be made up of four people, Levy, Poch, the Head of Recruitment and the Head of our Youth team. Levy has absolutely no skill in identifying new talent and therefore to my mind would not even attempt to identify new potential players. The Head of Youth policy would naturally focus on who he believes is coming through from the youth set up. That therefore leaves the Head of Recruitment and Poch. To me, it simply beggars belief that Poch would not have had the final say (given natural financial constraints) on who we purchased.

From the 200 million NET spent under his watch, I find it incredulous that we really bought so many lemons. Worse still, he was not able to develop hardly any of these players, principally those who he had not previously worked with at Southampton ( i.e. Wanyama and Toby). I therefore hold him (virtually) totally responsible for our recruitment. Do you believe that if he had identified say 4 or 5 key players and told Levy that these were worth spending 30-40 million on, Levy would have done his level best to get them? And don't give me Mane - (Liverpool simply outbid us on wages) or Barkley (Chelsea did the same). Why did he let Llorente (and even Janssen) go without getting in a suitable replacement - that was his negligence in my view. The only player which Levy probably made a mess of was Grealish by trying to be too clever in the negotiations - but who could have forecast that Villa would be saved from having to sell by a last minute takeover?

I loved Poch for the exciting team and football he gave us. I blame Poch for leaving is in total turmoil. Mourinho really has to try to sort out this mess and should be given every encouragement by us supporters to do so. It will take time - and certainly much longer than the one window and four months he has so far been at the helm.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Steff, You keep going on about the Committee buying these 27 players. As if somehow absolving Poch of all responsibility. Lets look at the Committee. It is commonly believed to be made up of four people, Levy, Poch, the Head of Recruitment and the Head of our Youth team. Levy has absolutely no skill in identifying new talent and therefore to my mind would not even attempt to identify new potential players. The Head of Youth policy would naturally focus on who he believes is coming through from the youth set up. That therefore leaves the Head of Recruitment and Poch. To me, it simply beggars belief that Poch would not have had the final say (given natural financial constraints) on who we purchased.

From the 200 million NET spent under his watch, I find it incredulous that we really bought so many lemons. Worse still, he was not able to develop hardly any of these players, principally those who he had not previously worked with at Southampton ( i.e. Wanyama and Toby). I therefore hold him (virtually) totally responsible for our recruitment. Do you believe that if he had identified say 4 or 5 key players and told Levy that these were worth spending 30-40 million on, Levy would have done his level best to get them? And don't give me Mane - (Liverpool simply outbid us on wages) or Barkley (Chelsea did the same). Why did he let Llorente (and even Janssen) go without getting in a suitable replacement - that was his negligence in my view. The only player which Levy probably made a mess of was Grealish by trying to be too clever in the negotiations - but who could have forecast that Villa would be saved from having to sell by a last minute takeover?

I loved Poch for the exciting team and football he gave us. I blame Poch for leaving is in total turmoil. Mourinho really has to try to sort out this mess and should be given every encouragement by us supporters to do so. It will take time - and certainly much longer than the one window and four months he has so far been at the helm.

200 million NET spend? Was it really that much? It was £20 million total in the 4 years before this summer.... then what?... £50m for Ndombele, £25m for Sessegnon, a £15m loan fee for Lo Celso and £10m on Clarke (who it seems he didn’t actually want).... with even that offset with some sales, so probably not even half of £200 million, or put another way £20 million a year (probably less than West Ham spend).

He also got no real chance to work with those new expensive players due to injuries.

if looking at signings he made that he improved i’d definitely say: Son, Wanyama, Toby, Davies, Wimmer, Dier and Dele. Numerous others already here also improved under him... Kane, Winks, Rose, Walker, Eriksen, Dembele.

 

[DubaiSpur]

My wife DVR'd the whole thing including pre-match!

Enjoy, mate. Personally, I doubt I'll ever watch it again, but it's good to know other fans find a degree of comfort in doing so.

 

[thfcsteff]

Steff, You keep going on about the Committee buying these 27 players. As if somehow absolving Poch of all responsibility. Lets look at the Committee. It is commonly believed to be made up of four people, Levy, Poch, the Head of Recruitment and the Head of our Youth team. Levy has absolutely no skill in identifying new talent and therefore to my mind would not even attempt to identify new potential players. The Head of Youth policy would naturally focus on who he believes is coming through from the youth set up. That therefore leaves the Head of Recruitment and Poch. To me, it simply beggars belief that Poch would not have had the final say (given natural financial constraints) on who we purchased.

From the 200 million NET spent under his watch, I find it incredulous that we really bought so many lemons. Worse still, he was not able to develop hardly any of these players, principally those who he had not previously worked with at Southampton ( i.e. Wanyama and Toby). I therefore hold him (virtually) totally responsible for our recruitment. Do you believe that if he had identified say 4 or 5 key players and told Levy that these were worth spending 30-40 million on, Levy would have done his level best to get them? And don't give me Mane - (Liverpool simply outbid us on wages) or Barkley (Chelsea did the same). Why did he let Llorente (and even Janssen) go without getting in a suitable replacement - that was his negligence in my view. The only player which Levy probably made a mess of was Grealish by trying to be too clever in the negotiations - but who could have forecast that Villa would be saved from having to sell by a last minute takeover?

I loved Poch for the exciting team and football he gave us. I blame Poch for leaving is in total turmoil. Mourinho really has to try to sort out this mess and should be given every encouragement by us supporters to do so. It will take time - and certainly much longer than the one window and four months he has so far been at the helm.

I disagree.

Wholeheartedly.

I do, however, agree that Mourinho deserves full support. In fact, I have said it since he was appointed.

 

[Pirate55]

200 million NET spend? Was it really that much? It was £20 million total in the 4 years before this summer.... then what?... £50m for Ndombele, £25m for Sessegnon, a £15m loan fee for Lo Celso and £10m on Clarke (who it seems he didn’t actually want).... with even that offset with some sales, so probably not even half of £200 million, or put another way £20 million a year (probably less than West Ham spend).

He also got no real chance to work with those new expensive players due to injuries.

if looking at signings he made that he improved i’d definitely say: Son, Wanyama, Toby, Davies, Wimmer, Dier and Dele. Numerous others already here also improved under him... Kane, Winks, Rose, Walker, Eriksen, Dembele.

you miss the point. Levy confirmed that the NET spend was 200 million under Poch. I never said he didn’t improve our first team . What he failed to do was to bring in players to supplement an already good team. He made some strange pronouncements in the windows where we didn’t recruit anyone - saying things like it wasn’t worth bringing in players unless they would improve the team. No thought given to squad strengthening or succession planning. Some players had a great first season under him then went backwards - Sanchez, Wanyama, Bentaleb, Mason. Other highly rated youth players never kicked on - Edwards, Pritchard , Onamya etc. Many good prospect signings simply didn’t make any progress under him - Jansen, Nkoudou, Njai, Aurier, Foyth, Gazzaniga. His big ticket signings haven’t proved stellar and/or hit the ground running - Sanchez, Sissoko, Sessegnon or NDombele.

Yes, for a period we had a great team which played wonderful football. However, was that a fortunate confluence of events? We already had in place a good core of young hungry English players ripe for double training sessions and a high tempo pressing game. They were supplemented by some quality individuals at the top of their game - particularly the three Belgians. At that time in our history, Poch, the team and the supporters were supremely matched. However, he failed to build or develop from that platform. I will be really intrigued to see if his methods work at his next club.

 

[Finney Is Back]

you miss the point. Levy confirmed that the NET spend was 200 million under Poch. I never said he didn’t improve our first team . What he failed to do was to bring in players to supplement an already good team. He made some strange pronouncements in the windows where we didn’t recruit anyone - saying things like it wasn’t worth bringing in players unless they would improve the team. No thought given to squad strengthening or succession planning. Some players had a great first season under him then went backwards - Sanchez, Wanyama, Bentaleb, Mason. Other highly rated youth players never kicked on - Edwards, Pritchard , Onamya etc. Many good prospect signings simply didn’t make any progress under him - Jansen, Nkoudou, Njai, Aurier, Foyth, Gazzaniga. His big ticket signings haven’t proved stellar and/or hit the ground running - Sanchez, Sissoko, Sessegnon or NDombele.

Yes, for a period we had a great team which played wonderful football. However, was that a fortunate confluence of events? We already had in place a good core of young hungry English players ripe for double training sessions and a high tempo pressing game. They were supplemented by some quality individuals at the top of their game - particularly the three Belgians. At that time in our history, Poch, the team and the supporters were supremely matched. However, he failed to build or develop from that platform. I will be really intrigued to see if his methods work at his next club.

£106.2 million net over the last 5 years according to here: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1

Note however that this includes January under Mourinho so you can remove the £33 million or so of outgoings for Bergwjin and Gedson's loan fee and the £20 odd million of income from Eriksen's departure and Rose and KWP's loan fees.

So Pochettino actually spent about £93 million net over 5 years. To put that into context of how it compares to the other clubs currently in the PL, this is the 15th highest net spend in the PL over that period. Only Norwich, Sheffield United, Burnley, Southampton and Crystal Palace have spent less than us in that same time period. If you want to add the Championship to that as well then we slip even lower with Fulham and Stoke having spent more than us over that same 5 year period. a sobering thought really. Even more sobering is the fact that if you ignore last summer's signings that Pochettino got virtually no chance to work with at all, and take just the four year period before that then it is only Norwich, Southampton and Sheffield United who spent less than Pochettino's Spurs, of course only Southampton were PL ever presents.

I would imagine the windows when Pochettino didn't get his targets and made do with cheap signings instead may have caused him to turn down sub-standard players in later windows. Of course we know that he definitely wanted Grealish only for the chairman to balls up a deal that could've been done for a very reasonable amount (I expect Grealish will now move clubs this summer for around £50 million, when he could've spent a year understudying Eriksen and smoothly replaced him this season).

If I look at those highly rated youth players that didn't kick on, none of them have gone on to anything significant in their career. I think that probably suggests that they simply weren't good enough players or had the wrong attitude to make it to the top?

Re: Bentaleb and Mason, I think Pochettino just upgraded them with the likes of Dier and Wanyama. For every good prospect signing that didn't progress under him, there was one that clearly improved under him.... (Dele, Trippier, Dier, Son, Wimmer, Davies) That is the nature of 'prospects' you are going to have a patchy hit rate as you are buying potential instead of proven players.

A couple of those big ticket signings didn't even really get a chance to play under Pochettino, Sessegnon arrived injured (Remember that Poch also wanted to bring him in a year earlier, I guess to spend a year getting up to speed so that they could release Rose in Summer 19, i.e. succession planning, like with Eriksen and Grealish). Also Ndombele started really well for Pochettino before getting injured, he looked far better at the start of the season than he does now under Mourinho, where it seems as though he doesn't want to play for the team at all. So that leaves Sanchez and Sissoko. I think Sanchez did alright under Pochettino, not brilliant, but OK for a young centre half. Sissoko also came good after a terrible first season and an improving second season, does Sissoko's improvement not perhaps evidence some good coaching from Pochettino?

I expect Pochettino to do brilliantly at the next club he manages, especially if the chairman listens to him and buys and sells the players he wants and properly backs him with money for signings instead of giving him less to spend than three quarters of the clubs in the same league.

 

[Pirate55]

£106.2 million net over the last 5 years according to here: https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/fuenfjahresvergleich/wettbewerb/GB1

Note however that this includes January under Mourinho so you can remove the £33 million or so of outgoings for Bergwjin and Gedson's loan fee and the £20 odd million of income from Eriksen's departure and Rose and KWP's loan fees.

So Pochettino actually spent about £93 million net over 5 years. To put that into context of how it compares to the other clubs currently in the PL, this is the 15th highest net spend in the PL over that period. Only Norwich, Sheffield United, Burnley, Southampton and Crystal Palace have spent less than us in that same time period. If you want to add the Championship to that as well then we slip even lower with Fulham and Stoke having spent more than us over that same 5 year period. a sobering thought really. Even more sobering is the fact that if you ignore last summer's signings that Pochettino got virtually no chance to work with at all, and take just the four year period before that then it is only Norwich, Southampton and Sheffield United who spent less than Pochettino's Spurs, of course only Southampton were PL ever presents.

I would imagine the windows when Pochettino didn't get his targets and made do with cheap signings instead may have caused him to turn down sub-standard players in later windows. Of course we know that he definitely wanted Grealish only for the chairman to balls up a deal that could've been done for a very reasonable amount (I expect Grealish will now move clubs this summer for around £50 million, when he could've spent a year understudying Eriksen and smoothly replaced him this season).

If I look at those highly rated youth players that didn't kick on, none of them have gone on to anything significant in their career. I think that probably suggests that they simply weren't good enough players or had the wrong attitude to make it to the top?

Re: Bentaleb and Mason, I think Pochettino just upgraded them with the likes of Dier and Wanyama. For every good prospect signing that didn't progress under him, there was one that clearly improved under him.... (Dele, Trippier, Dier, Son, Wimmer, Davies) That is the nature of 'prospects' you are going to have a patchy hit rate as you are buying potential instead of proven players.

A couple of those big ticket signings didn't even really get a chance to play under Pochettino, Sessegnon arrived injured (Remember that Poch also wanted to bring him in a year earlier, I guess to spend a year getting up to speed so that they could release Rose in Summer 19, i.e. succession planning, like with Eriksen and Grealish). Also Ndombele started really well for Pochettino before getting injured, he looked far better at the start of the season than he does now under Mourinho, where it seems as though he doesn't want to play for the team at all. So that leaves Sanchez and Sissoko. I think Sanchez did alright under Pochettino, not brilliant, but OK for a young centre half. Sissoko also came good after a terrible first season and an improving second season, does Sissoko's improvement not perhaps evidence some good coaching from Pochettino?

I expect Pochettino to do brilliantly at the next club he manages, especially if the chairman listens to him and buys and sells the players he wants and properly backs him with money for signings instead of giving him less to spend than three quarters of the clubs in the same league.

Everything good you ascribe to Poch. All the clangers to someone else - Levy, Head of Recuitment, Head of Youth, injuries, lack of fitness, inability to sell players, etc etc.

The acid test will be how he performs at his next club. Remember, he failed at Español and indeed has he won a trophy anywhere?

 

[thfcsteff]

you miss the point.

EDITED

Yes, for a period we had a great team which played wonderful football. However, was that a fortunate confluence of events? We already had in place a good core of young hungry English players ripe for double training sessions and a high tempo pressing game. They were supplemented by some quality individuals at the top of their game - particularly the three Belgians. At that time in our history, Poch, the team and the supporters were supremely matched. However, he failed to build or develop from that platform. I will be really intrigued to see if his methods work at his next club.

Kaboul, Crapoue and Adebayor were not "ripe for double training sessions", Nobby couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo from three feet and we were in general disarray. Vertonghen was inconsistent, Toby arrived under Poch (i.e. he signed him) and Dembele was always a talent without a fit into the side.

Again, you see the story you wish to see from that point. I think to most it is pretty clear.

But again, let's try to stay on track and support the current manager.

Who would you like to see him sign/be green-lit to sign?
Perhaps as interestingly, do you think he chose not to buy a striker this January?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Kaboul, Crapoue and Adebayor were not "ripe for double training sessions", Nobby couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo from three feet and we were in general disarray. Vertonghen was inconsistent, Toby arrived under Poch (i.e. he signed him) and Dembele was always a talent without a fit into the side.

Again, you see the story you wish to see from that point. I think to most it is pretty clear.

But again, let's try to stay on track and support the current manager.

Who would you like to see him sign/be green-lit to sign?
Perhaps as interestingly, do you think he chose not to buy a striker this January?

I definitely think he chose not to buy a striker in jan as I believe he saw what was available and didn’t want any more “baggage” to deal with if the player was in his opinion inferior to what he had... we weren’t doing too bad at the time either

I do think he now ha a great idea of what the team needs to and that’s massively massively valuable as despite everyone’s opinions I’m not convinced he would agree with most fans and he will have his views now

 

[Pirate55]

Kaboul, Crapoue and Adebayor were not "ripe for double training sessions", Nobby couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo from three feet and we were in general disarray. Vertonghen was inconsistent, Toby arrived under Poch (i.e. he signed him) and Dembele was always a talent without a fit into the side.

Again, you see the story you wish to see from that point. I think to most it is pretty clear.

But again, let's try to stay on track and support the current manager.

Who would you like to see him sign/be green-lit to sign?
Perhaps as interestingly, do you think he chose not to buy a striker this January?

I am sure he wanted to buy a striker in January - but so did United and Chelsea. I think he wanted Giroud as a stop gap, but we wasted our time there as Chelsea would never have let him come to us. I believe he wants a bully boy, target man centre forward ( like Drogba, Costa , Lukaku) but there weren't any of sufficient quality available. I also think he wanted Matic to prorect our defense , but he has now come good at United, who are now offering him a new two year contract.

I have said continually we need steel down our spine. A top CH, DCM and CF. Next level priority would be the full backs. We have enough quality, pretty-pretty players, we desperately need to infuse the side with winners in key positions. Most important of all, we desperately need a DOF and also a new head of recruitment.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I am sure he wanted to buy a striker in January - but so did United and Chelsea. I think he wanted Giroud as a stop gap, but we wasted our time there as Chelsea would never have let him come to us. I believe he wants a bully boy, target man centre forward ( like Drogba, Costa , Lukaku) but there weren't any of sufficient quality available. I also think he wanted Matic to prorect our defense , but he has now come good at United, who are now offering him a new two year contract.

I have said continually we need steel down our spine. A top CH, DCM and CF. Next level priority would be the full backs. We have enough quality, pretty-pretty players, we desperately need to infuse the side with winners in key positions. Most important of all, we desperately need a DOF and also a new head of recruitment.

Why do people think he wanted Matic?
I’ve never got that link
He is average and clumsy but playing well the last 6 weeks I’d agree

 

[thfcsteff]

I am sure he wanted to buy a striker in January - but so did United and Chelsea. I think he wanted Giroud as a stop gap, but we wasted our time there as Chelsea would never have let him come to us. I believe he wants a bully boy, target man centre forward ( like Drogba, Costa , Lukaku) but there weren't any of sufficient quality available. I also think he wanted Matic to prorect our defense , but he has now come good at United, who are now offering him a new two year contract.

I have said continually we need steel down our spine. A top CH, DCM and CF. Next level priority would be the full backs. We have enough quality, pretty-pretty players, we desperately need to infuse the side with winners in key positions. Most important of all, we desperately need a DOF and also a new head of recruitment.

I think he desperately wanted a striker, and that Giroud (whilst a perfect fit for our immediate needs) was a smokescreen of 'we tried'.

Personally I think he got shafted in the window. Hope it doesn't happen twice as Jose won't tolerate it IMO and neither should he.

 

[thfcsteff]

I definitely think he chose not to buy a striker in jan as I believe he saw what was available and didn’t want any more “baggage” to deal with if the player was in his opinion inferior to what he had... we weren’t doing too bad at the time either

I do think he now ha a great idea of what the team needs to and that’s massively massively valuable as despite everyone’s opinions I’m not convinced he would agree with most fans and he will have his views now

I would personally be happy to know that was the case.

 

[Pirate55]

Why do people think he wanted Matic?
I’ve never got that link
He is average and clumsy but playing well the last 6 weeks I’d agree

Mourinho knows him well from his time at Chelsea and recruited him for United. He obviously rates him. I think he thought he would provide cover for our defense which it self evidently needs. Wouldn't be my first choice, but we are/were fire-fighting this season.

 

[parklane1]

I definitely think he chose not to buy a striker in jan as I believe he saw what was available and didn’t want any more “baggage” to deal with if the player was in his opinion inferior to what he had... we weren’t doing too bad at the time either

That is how i see it as well, there was nothing really availiable that would have really made a difference and i believe that is how Jose saw it.

 

[SteveAWOL]

The compassionate one...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1242175852756033537

 

[metalgear]

I blame everyone and the biggest culprits are levy and poch for not being able to work out together priorities on and off the pitch, short and long term.

Levy mostly as he is the big boss, but poch for team development and succession planning which are essential respinaibilities of head coach (given the funds he had available).

Steff, You keep going on about the Committee buying these 27 players. As if somehow absolving Poch of all responsibility. Lets look at the Committee. It is commonly believed to be made up of four people, Levy, Poch, the Head of Recruitment and the Head of our Youth team. Levy has absolutely no skill in identifying new talent and therefore to my mind would not even attempt to identify new potential players. The Head of Youth policy would naturally focus on who he believes is coming through from the youth set up. That therefore leaves the Head of Recruitment and Poch. To me, it simply beggars belief that Poch would not have had the final say (given natural financial constraints) on who we purchased.

From the 200 million NET spent under his watch, I find it incredulous that we really bought so many lemons. Worse still, he was not able to develop hardly any of these players, principally those who he had not previously worked with at Southampton ( i.e. Wanyama and Toby). I therefore hold him (virtually) totally responsible for our recruitment. Do you believe that if he had identified say 4 or 5 key players and told Levy that these were worth spending 30-40 million on, Levy would have done his level best to get them? And don't give me Mane - (Liverpool simply outbid us on wages) or Barkley (Chelsea did the same). Why did he let Llorente (and even Janssen) go without getting in a suitable replacement - that was his negligence in my view. The only player which Levy probably made a mess of was Grealish by trying to be too clever in the negotiations - but who could have forecast that Villa would be saved from having to sell by a last minute takeover?

I loved Poch for the exciting team and football he gave us. I blame Poch for leaving is in total turmoil. Mourinho really has to try to sort out this mess and should be given every encouragement by us supporters to do so. It will take time - and certainly much longer than the one window and four months he has so far been at the helm.

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