Jordon Peterson

[glasgowspur]

The points about jobs. As @Rorschach stated, these are basic truths which are not wholesale indicators that the gender pay gap is a myth or explainable by these small sample points. Also, it’s 2022, women are at liberty to get any job they so choose irrespective of salary and whether they want to start a family. The fact they still have to consider that should be an valid argument that the pay gap exists and undermines women.

Cathy Newman is an exceptional and credible journalist who had an off day when interviewing Peterson. Unfortunately you now see videos online of it with titles like ‘JORDAN PETERSON DESTROYS WOKE VIRTUE SIGNALLING FEMINAZI’ as a homage to his brilliance. It shows the level of the audience he is attracting.

Your first paragraph. I agree completely about children playing less outdoors stunting a range of abilities that generations before them were able to nurture. That doesn’t make Peterson’s statement any more credible alongside the great works of Plato. That’s literally common sense. He’s just stating it to a larger audience than most of us.

Edit: @Jurgen the German I absolutely agree with the first sentence of your second paragraph. It’s a sad indicator of where we are as a species that someone spitting common sense 101 is regarded as one of the great minds of our time.

I know of this guy, but little about him, so I'm not defending him.
I don't think its a good idea idea to judge someone or their argument based on the posted on social media by other people.
Chances are they are posted online and that is the last he has anything to do with it, assuming it's even him that is posting it in the first place.

 

[Lilbaz]

100% they should. As I said before, society has s h i t t y priorities, that’s not womens fault, that’s just how it is.

Tbf it's not society. If the population had a choice of paying nurses more and cover that by properly taxing the super rich (businesses and individuals) i think the majority would be in favour. But that isn't how it works in our "democracy".

 

[Jurgen the German]

But he is also right, but people don't want to believe the truth. He explains the facts behind the reasoning he does not say "women should earn less" he explains why it exists and why in many cases why its not as people say. For example the examples of the gender pay gap is often highlighted as a C-Suite level and not at the level where the majority of society sits where the gaps are less and those amounts of millions in pay gap distort the figures. He is also very pro self choice and as you say people choose different jobs and its personal choice but for example when talking equality people drone on about it but do they want all that comes with it AKA do we want to see 50/50 women and men on building sites, do women want that? Women have alot of stumbling blocks to life but as do Men so do we want to take away the issues women have only to equalise them with the problem men me face such as you are more like to face violence as a man than a women etc and he is right in my opinion. Alot of arguments, on both sides are cherry picked to suit the point being made but there is alot of simplified reasoning, life is tough, why should it not be? Its hard for me and its hard for women.

It’s a cliche but the truth hurts. It would be wrong to claim there isn’t a pay gap, but there are reasons for it there aren’t just plain old fashioned sexism. Women choose different jobs, men do more dangerous jobs.

Completely agree with your other post about Stephen Fry. The world needs more centrist liberals like Fry, Sam Harris, John McWhorter, Glenn Loury and Steven Pinker who talk common sense and push back against PC when it goes too far. I particularly liked the PC gone mad debate when Fry was arguing against PC alongside Peterson.

 

[AuroRaman]

Have you ever heard of Christina Hoff Sommers? She essentially says the same things which go some way to explaining the pay gap; women choose jobs that are lower in pay. A petroleum engineer will earn more than a nurse or a social worker. Society has bricky priorities, but it’s not because women are being cheated. Also, feminists don’t bring up the fact that a lot of dangerous jobs like roofing for example. Men are more likely to die whilst at work. That’s not me crying about being a man, but life is a complex mix of advantages and disadvantages. Men are also more willing IMO to work more punishing hours at law firms for example, that’s not to say women don’t work hard, but more men work crazy hours than women.

I’ve not heard of her. I’ll check her out. There’s nothing else I really disagree with and there’s not anything controversial that’s suggested by Peterson/your post there. But it shouldn’t be used to weaponise anti-feminist rhetoric or minimise the difficulties women have had historically and continue to have in equal pay for equal jobs. Peterson knows what he’s doing. His monetising of galvanising disaffected mostly young males into ‘owning the libs’ and taking his work completely out of context (something that is routinely thrown at the left side) is dangerous.

One thing I absolutely disagree with is that in the modern day, women work less hours than men. Or at least if that was the case in previous generations, that is even-ing up, in my opinion. I’m taking my industry as a yardstick for this but happy to be shown I’m incorrect if there’s data available that I can’t be arsed to look up. I imagine there’s a graph that shows a man on an oil rig works twice the hours a week a woman in a management role in an office works for example. But again that’s such a contentious way to measure the gender argument in the workplace.

 

[AuroRaman]

I know of this guy, but little about him, so I'm not defending him.
I don't think its a good idea idea to judge someone or their argument based on the posted on social media by other people.
Chances are they are posted online and that is the last he has anything to do with it, assuming it's even him that is posting it in the first place.

I was fascinated with him when he first came to my attention. I haven’t read his book but I did deep-dive into his lectures and some of the debates that have been mentioned on here already.

I’ll reassert that I think it’s very lazy to call him a ‘right wing philosopher’ or throw similar shade at him. I’m pretty sure he’s a centrist or was even left-leaning. However he has become a leading figure within the far right movement and he isn’t doing enough to quell that in my opinion. Even on here, there is chat about fighting back against the radical left as if that is in any way more dangerous than the far right weaponising his rhetoric and taking his work out of context for very insidious practices.

You’re absolutely right, most of what you’ll see online isn’t posted by him, but by his own admission he’s worked out how to ‘monetise social justice warriors’ and refuses to condemn incredibly dangerous rhetoric by a large group of his followers which could lead to worse. And anything involving him on social media is often a cesspit of misogyny, racist and homo/transphobic commentary. What starts online and is allowed to fester can and has lead to deadly consequences.

 

[Lilbaz]

It’s a cliche but the truth hurts. It would be wrong to claim there isn’t a pay gap, but there are reasons for it there aren’t just plain old fashioned sexism. Women choose different jobs, men do more dangerous jobs.

Completely agree with your other post about Stephen Fry. The world needs more centrist liberals like Fry, Sam Harris, John McWhorter, Glenn Loury and Steven Pinker who talk common sense and push back against PC when it goes too far. I particularly liked the PC gone mad debate when Fry was arguing against PC alongside Peterson.

It's a strange one. Yes people should be nice to each other, treat each other with respect. The colour of your skin or sex or religious beliefs shouldn't matter. We should all live by the golden rule. But we can't there will always be someone rude, or angry, people that may hate you for whatever reason. There should be consequences for that. To an extent.
It's the whole cancel culture and you have to think a certain way and agree with everything we say. If you don't you are an ...ist or a phobe or alt right and we will do everything we can to tear you down. The pushing of political ideology in tv, movies and main stream media. If you don't like it you are branded. Star wars, johnny depp trial etc... think nearly everyone on the planet has been branded a misogynist by now for not liking something a woman was involved in.

Then you do have the alt right nutters that point to it and say look how crazy they are, you should join us. Which polarises it even more.

I'll just say this, it's controversial but i'll say it anyway. Men and women are not enemies. We have worked together for a million years. Together we have produced generations of brilliant and not so brilliant people that have built the world we live in. It's not perfect, but it's better than a hundred years ago. We'll have problems but we can overcome them together.

 

[AuroRaman]

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/world/2018/3/26/17144166/jordan-peterson-12-rules-for-life

This article pretty much aligns where I’m at with Peterson. Apart from again the lazy right wing assertions.

Lastly, I simply can’t take anyone seriously who chooses to live on a diet of beef, salt and water only.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I’ve not heard of her. I’ll check her out. There’s nothing else I really disagree with and there’s not anything controversial that’s suggested by Peterson/your post there. But it shouldn’t be used to weaponise anti-feminist rhetoric or minimise the difficulties women have had historically and continue to have in equal pay for equal jobs. Peterson knows what he’s doing. His monetising of galvanising disaffected mostly young males into ‘owning the libs’ and taking his work completely out of context (something that is routinely thrown at the left side) is dangerous.

One thing I absolutely disagree with is that in the modern day, women work less hours than men. Or at least if that was the case in previous generations, that is even-ing up, in my opinion. I’m taking my industry as a yardstick for this but happy to be shown I’m incorrect if there’s data available that I can’t be arsed to look up. I imagine there’s a graph that shows a man on an oil rig works twice the hours a week a woman in a management role in an office works for example. But again that’s such a contentious way to measure the gender argument in the workplace.

I just think he’s giving his honest take. I’ll put my cards on the table, I’m a liberal but not a progressive, I class myself as left of centre. But unfortunately these days a lot of liberals just don’t have common sense, the Labour Party can’t or won’t even define what a woman is. I wish more prominent liberals held views on free speech like Stephen Fry and Bill Maher. I may not agree with everything they say, but they stand up for free speech which seems to be under attack from the left. Completely the opposite scenario from 20-30 years ago when liberals fought for free speech.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It's a strange one. Yes people should be nice to each other, treat each other with respect. The colour of your skin or sex or religious beliefs shouldn't matter. We should all live by the golden rule. But we can't there will always be someone rude, or angry, people that may hate you for whatever reason. There should be consequences for that. To an extent.
It's the whole cancel culture and you have to think a certain way and agree with everything we say. If you don't you are an ...ist or a phobe or alt right and we will do everything we can to tear you down. The pushing of political ideology in tv, movies and main stream media. If you don't like it you are branded. Star wars, johnny depp trial etc... think nearly everyone on the planet has been branded a misogynist by now for not liking something a woman was involved in.

Then you do have the alt right nutters that point to it and say look how crazy they are, you should join us. Which polarises it even more.

I'll just say this, it's controversial but i'll say it anyway. Men and women are not enemies. We have worked together for a million years. Together we have produced generations of brilliant and not so brilliant people that have built the world we live in. It's not perfect, but it's better than a hundred years ago. We'll have problems but we can overcome them together.

Top post.

Particularly enjoyed/agreed with the part about being called misogynistic for not liking something a woman was involved in, like the female remake of Ghostbusters for example. It wasn’t brick because women were in it, it was just brick because it was brick. The director of that film and the cast made bridesmaids which is a funny film, ghostbusters was just misfire.

Steven Pinker frequently highlights how far humanity has come just in the last 100 years on things like infant mortality, inequality, extreme poverty and so on. That doesn’t mean there isn’t work to be done. But he even coined a term “progressophobia”. People for some reason would rather act superior and claim everything is still brick rather than acknowledge the progress we have made. As he says “to look at data that shows that violence has gone down and say violence has gone down is stating facts. To look at data showing violence has gone down and say violence has gone up is to be delusional”

 

[AuroRaman]

I just think he’s giving his honest take. I’ll put my cards on the table, I’m a liberal but not a progressive, I class myself as left of centre. But unfortunately these days a lot of liberals just don’t have common sense, the Labour Party can’t or won’t even define what a woman is. I wish more prominent liberals held views on free speech like Stephen Fry and Bill Maher. I may not agree with everything they say, but they stand up for free speech which seems to be under attack from the left. Completely the opposite scenario from 20-30 years ago when liberals fought for free speech.

I think we’re pretty much aligned. However I believe both sides are attacking the right to free speech in their own ways. The right are just better at attacking the left for attacking it, if that makes any sense?!

That said, as much as I believe in freedom of speech, I also believe in calling out and consequences against hate speech, especially rhetoric which can cause actual harm to an individual or groups of people. I think where the left is criticised in this is where they draw the line in the sand from accepted freedom of speech into hate speech.

 

[Lilbaz]

Top post.

Particularly enjoyed/agreed with the part about being called misogynistic for not liking something a woman was involved in, like the female remake of Ghostbusters for example. It wasn’t brick because women were in it, it was just brick because it was brick. The director of that film and the cast made bridesmaids which is a funny film, ghostbusters was just misfire.

Steven Pinker frequently highlights how far humanity has come just in the last 100 years on things like infant mortality, inequality, extreme poverty and so on. That doesn’t mean there isn’t work to be done. But he even coined a term “progressophobia”. People for some reason would rather act superior and claim everything is still brick rather than acknowledge the progress we have made. As he says “to look at data that shows that violence has gone down and say violence has gone down is stating facts. To look at data showing violence has gone down and say violence has gone up is to be delusional”

Yeah i saw his ted appearance.

 

[Lilbaz]

I think we’re pretty much aligned. However I believe both sides are attacking the right to free speech in their own ways. The right are just better at attacking the left for attacking it, if that makes any sense?!

That said, as much as I believe in freedom of speech, I also believe in calling out and consequences against hate speech, especially rhetoric which can cause actual harm to an individual or groups of people. I think where the left is criticised in this is where they draw the line in the sand from accepted freedom of speech into hate speech.

The left will always be held to higher standards. Mostly because they demand them. The right are more a capitalist everyone out for themselves mindset.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think we’re pretty much aligned. However I believe both sides are attacking the right to free speech in their own ways. The right are just better at attacking the left for attacking it, if that makes any sense?!

That said, as much as I believe in freedom of speech, I also believe in calling out and consequences against hate speech, especially rhetoric which can cause actual harm to an individual or groups of people. I think where the left is criticised in this is where they draw the line in the sand from accepted freedom of speech into hate speech.

Of course, there are snowflakes on the right too. I often think the left underestimate the right. They’re not nearly as stupid as we like to think they are.

I agree freedom of speech also means that speech has consequences, but to en extent that has always been the case. I’m 37 and even when I was at school, everyone knew racism or homophobia wouldn’t be tolerated. The problem is, there is a vocal minority (particularly on twitter) who wake up offended and keep moving the line as to what is offensive and even changing the definition of the word violence such as “words are violence”. That in turn causes a reaction from the right which polarises things even more.

 

[glasgowspur]

I was fascinated with him when he first came to my attention. I haven’t read his book but I did deep-dive into his lectures and some of the debates that have been mentioned on here already.

I’ll reassert that I think it’s very lazy to call him a ‘right wing philosopher’ or throw similar shade at him. I’m pretty sure he’s a centrist or was even left-leaning. However he has become a leading figure within the far right movement and he isn’t doing enough to quell that in my opinion. Even on here, there is chat about fighting back against the radical left as if that is in any way more dangerous than the far right weaponising his rhetoric and taking his work out of context for very insidious practices.

You’re absolutely right, most of what you’ll see online isn’t posted by him, but by his own admission he’s worked out how to ‘monetise social justice warriors’ and refuses to condemn incredibly dangerous rhetoric by a large group of his followers which could lead to worse. And anything involving him on social media is often a cesspit of misogyny, racist and homo/transphobic commentary. What starts online and is allowed to fester can and has lead to deadly consequences.

Never trust anyone that calls themselves or is called a philosopher.
But seriously, you can't please everyone all the time and the world now just seems like it wants you pick a side, and if you don't pick their side then you are the enemy.

 

[Lilbaz]

Of course, there are snowflakes on the right too. I often think the left underestimate the right. They’re not nearly as stupid as we like to think they are.

I agree freedom of speech also means that speech has consequences, but to en extent that has always been the case. I’m 37 and even when I was at school, everyone knew racism or homophobia wouldn’t be tolerated. The problem is, there is a vocal minority (particularly on twitter) who wake up offended and keep moving the line as to what is offensive and even changing the definition of the word violence such as “words are violence”. That in turn causes a reaction from the right which polarises things even more.

Remember there are bad players on socisl media, who's job it is to stir up civil unrest in western countries. That use bots aswell.

 

[Jurgen the German]

On the subject of equal pay, what is everyone’s thoughts on Wimbledon as it’s coming up in a couple of weeks? I’m fine with men and women getting the same but the women should have to play best of 5 sets like the men do. Never mind that the mens game generates more interest and revenue than their female counterparts, it just doesn’t wash anymore to say women “can’t play 5 sets”. It’s quite anachronistic to how we have come to think of women as equal and strong and able to do everything men can do.

 

[Grays_1890]

On the subject of equal pay, what is everyone’s thoughts on Wimbledon as it’s coming up in a couple of weeks? I’m fine with men and women getting the same but the women should have to play best of 5 sets like the men do. Never mind that the mens game generates more interest and revenue than their female counterparts, it just doesn’t wash anymore to say women “can’t play 5 sets”. It’s quite anachronistic to how we have come to think of women as equal and strong and able to do everything men can do.

Sports a tougher one, if the TV money and sponsorship money is up there for the womens coverage and they play BO 5 sets then yeh.

But sports like women's football you can't pay the striker of women's Emirates Marketing Project 350,000 a week to level up with Haaland for example, the game would go to pot as their is far less money in their game because unfortunately spectators, TV and sponsors don't value it as high

 

[spitshine]

On the subject of equal pay, what is everyone’s thoughts on Wimbledon as it’s coming up in a couple of weeks? I’m fine with men and women getting the same but the women should have to play best of 5 sets like the men do. Never mind that the mens game generates more interest and revenue than their female counterparts, it just doesn’t wash anymore to say women “can’t play 5 sets”. It’s quite anachronistic to how we have come to think of women as equal and strong and able to do everything men can do.

Saw the recent comments by Mauresmo and you’ll be hard pressed to find many who disagree with her comments. it’s simply not as attractive enough for scheduling and the levels far lower. This coming from the female director of the french open.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/tennis/amelie-mauresmo-apology-french-open-27134589

 

[Jurgen the German]

Saw the recent comments by Mauresmo and you’ll be hard pressed to find many who disagree with her comments. it’s simply not as attractive enough for scheduling and the levels far lower. This coming from the female director of the french open.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/tennis/amelie-mauresmo-apology-french-open-27134589

Yep. Absolutely nothing wrong with what she said and has nothing to apologise for. But she probably would have been forced to resign if she didn’t apologise for it in todays climate.

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

Women’s tennis is improving, the level may be lower but tennis is mostly about characters and rivalries. Osaka, Fernandez, Raducanu, Swiatek etc are hope for the future. They need two players who can consistently win slams each year to have a rivalry. Watching Nadal and Djokovic bash the ball about endlessly (when some tennis did break out in between the medical timeouts and ball bouncing) wasn’t even that great to watch anyway. On the men’s side I hope Alcaraz and Shapovalov mature well as they’re the most attacking of the next gen.