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Harry Winks

Bishop said:
Just to be clear in the PL you don't require any minimum number of homegrown players. You just can't have more than 17 foreign association developed players in a squad of 25. So you could if you wanted to have no English developed players and just have a squad of 17.

In UEFA competitions the rules are different, you have to have at least 8 home association developed players and 4 from your own academy.
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You could go with just 17 players but how many clubs realistically do that?

Also on the note of HG players you say "English developed players" do you mean English players developed at club or players developed at English club? I know it's semantics but the rule is for the latter.
 
camspur said:
You could go with just 17 players but how many clubs realistically do that?

Also on the note of HG players you say "English developed players" do you mean English players developed at club or players developed at English club? I know it's semantics but the rule is for the latter.
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The latter is the issue in Europe
 
I was more questioning the "Englishness" of the player or club, which is it? Player or club?

As far as i can see the only difference between UEFA and EPL rules are that the EPL count the Welsh clubs affiliated to the FA in their HG rule otherwise there is no difference. The player (in Spurs' case) doesn't have to be English just registered with the club for 3 years before they hit 21.

This is why Dier doesn't count but Fabregas does.
 
camspur said:
I was more questioning the "Englishness" of the player or club, which is it? Player or club?

As far as i can see the only difference between UEFA and EPL rules are that the EPL count the Welsh clubs affiliated to the FA in their HG rule otherwise there is no difference. The player (in Spurs' case) doesn't have to be English just registered with the club for 3 years before they hit 21.

This is why Dier doesn't count but Fabregas does.
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Correct
 
Yeah I don't see that we have much of an issue in terms of PL squad at the moment, if we don't sell Winks. A first team squad of 23 (plus youth players for depth) seems decent enough. Which we can achieve with 16 non-HG players plus Davies, Alli, Kane, Tanganga, Winks, Sessegnon, Hart.

And this article on UEFA's website says that the Champion's League (and so presumably the Europa League too) works in a similar way to the PL:

'A maximum of 25 players, two of whom must be goalkeepers. There are a minimum of eight places reserved exclusively for 'locally trained players'. If a club have fewer than eight locally trained players in their squad, then the maximum number of players on List A is reduced accordingly.'

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsl...rrer=/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2400510

So can't we just chuck in Cirkin for the Europa League squad to meet the requirement for four club-trained players (Kane, Tanganga, Winks and Cirkin), and then we're good to go?
 
elltrev said:
Yeah I don't see that we have much of an issue in terms of PL squad at the moment, if we don't sell Winks. A first team squad of 23 (plus youth players for depth) seems decent enough. Which we can achieve with 16 non-HG players plus Davies, Alli, Kane, Tanganga, Winks, Sessegnon, Hart.

And this article on UEFA's website says that the Champion's League (and so presumably the Europa League too) works in a similar way to the PL:

'A maximum of 25 players, two of whom must be goalkeepers. There are a minimum of eight places reserved exclusively for 'locally trained players'. If a club have fewer than eight locally trained players in their squad, then the maximum number of players on List A is reduced accordingly.'

https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0231-0e94d9d8129d-64371a29cafe-1000--uefa-champions-league-squads-how-it-works/?referrer=/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=2400510

So can't we just chuck in Cirkin for the Europa League squad to meet the requirement for four club-trained players (Kane, Tanganga, Winks and Cirkin), and then we're good to go?
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The rules for Home Grown and Home Association only apply players to over 21.

Neither Sessegnon nor Cirkin are 21 yet so don't count.

I'm struggling for a 4th club trained player.
 
camspur said:
The rules for Home Grown and Home Association only apply players to over 21.

Neither Sessegnon nor Cirkin are 21 yet so don't count.

I'm struggling for a 4th club trained player.
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Are you sure? I haven't been able to find a source for that anywhere. Edit: I appreciate that players who are 21 or younger don't have to count towards the homegrown quota, but does that also mean that they can't?

Either way, I don't think that affects the PL squad does it? Seems the key is that you're only allowed a max of 17 non-HG players, and we can fill the rest however we please.

I can see it's an issue for the European squad though if true, due to the need for four club-trained players over the age of 21. Would seem a stupid fudging rule if (for example) Tanganga doesn't count because he's too young, even though he was a meaningful part of our team last year?!
 
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elltrev said:
Are you sure? I haven't been able to find a source for that anywhere. Edit: I appreciate that players who are 21 or younger don't have to count towards the homegrown quota, but does that also mean that they can't?

Either way, I don't think that affects the PL squad does it? Seems the key is that you're only allowed a max of 17 non-HG players, and we can fill the rest however we please.

I can see it's an issue for the European squad though if true, due to the need for four club-trained players over the age of 21. Would seem a stupid fudging rule if (for example) Tanganga doesn't count because he's too young, even though he was a meaningful part of our team last year?!
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If you want stupid, look at the Davies and Dier situation
 
billyiddo said:
The rule isn't about nationality it's about where you were trained
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It may be fine by the letter of that law but the rule is a joke if it means players who play for the national team are not classed as homegrown or home based.

it surely can’t be in the spirit of why the law was brought in?
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
It may be fine by the letter of that law but the rule is a joke if it means players who play for the national team are not classed as homegrown or home based.

it surely can’t be in the spirit of why the law was bought in?
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But Dier as a player was "grown" abroad - i think the rule is fine for players like him and it makes sense once you move away from the idea that a country where a person is born is what's important.

Clubs and the FA's they are registered to should be encouraged/rewarded for developing players not just for happening to be the place where a person was born (imo)

Davies being trained at a club which is registeted to the English league not counting as home grown for an English club is what does not make sense.
 
billyiddo said:
But Dier as a player was "grown" abroad - i think the rule is fine for players like him and it makes sense once you move away from the idea that a country where a person is born is what's important.

Clubs and the FA's they are registered to should be encouraged/rewarded for developing players not just for happening to be the place where a person was born (imo)

Davies being trained at a club which is registeted to the English league not counting as home grown for an English club is what does not make sense.
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I disagree with your first paragraph, I think it is important. English club, English league, English player, what’s the problem, why pénalise that?

you can replace English in the above paragraph with Spanish, French, Italian, Russian, Cypriot or whatever you like and I feel exactly the same.
 
camspur said:
You could go with just 17 players but how many clubs realistically do that?

Also on the note of HG players you say "English developed players" do you mean English players developed at club or players developed at English club? I know it's semantics but the rule is for the latter.
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I meant the latter just wrote it lazily. A homegrown player is someone registered consistently within an association for 3 years or more before they were 21.

About the wider of Dier, the rules isn't about nationality. The rule is to encourage teams to use their own development resources to train players rather than just buying in. The limitation of the rule is obviously the EU guidance that's blocks nationality biases. So UEFA got around that making a minimum of 4 club trained players and 8 nationally trained players required.

Now Dier is English and plays for the national side but he was developed my an English association side he is NOT a product of the English coaching system. Also remember he could have opted to play for Portugal. So him not counting makes sense.

Davies is different his development side is registered in England. He is a product of the English FA's system.
 
Bishop said:
I meant the latter just wrote it lazily. A homegrown player is someone registered consistently within an association for 3 years or more before they were 21.

About the wider of Dier, the rules isn't about nationality. The rule is to encourage teams to use their own development resources to train players rather than just buying in. The limitation of the rule is obviously the EU guidance that's blocks nationality biases. So UEFA got around that making a minimum of 4 club trained players and 8 nationally trained players required.

Now Dier is English and plays for the national side but he was developed my an English association side he is NOT a product of the English coaching system. Also remember he could have opted to play for Portugal. So him not counting makes sense.

Davies is different his development side is registered in England. He is a product of the English FA's system.
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Was fabregas developer by arsenal? christiensen by Chelsea?
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Was fabregas developer by arsenal? christiensen by Chelsea?
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Fabregas spent a significant amount of time in Arsenal's youth/first team before he was 21 hence he counts as homegrown. Dier only spent 6 months developing with an English registered club.

One clearly owes more to his development to England than the other and he isn't named Eric Dier.

I personally though would require either 4 years or lower the limit to 19 or 20 lessening the chance of a super talent player (Fabregas) being brought in and claimed as a youth product.
 
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