football with "pace" - do we ?

[metalgear]

when poch arrived i thought he wanted pacy (sp?) football amongst other things.

however right now to me it doesn't look like we are a pacy team. i think arsenal liverpool and man u (recently) are doing it better ... but thats just me

i'm also struggling with how to discuss here this as i don't think a proper definition has been established, and there's a few dimensions here to think about:
- speed of players
- speed of gameplay e.g. transition from possession to attack
- pace on the ball

if anyone knows of any available published stats that will be useful

just using the definitions above its clear we don't have the fastest players.

i think our transition from possession to attack is usually quite slow, too often we are not decisive or dare not take the risk; resulting in the opposition managing to reorganize themselves.

i think we miss pace on the ball mostly. bale had some wicked shots on him but we also played the ball to him at pace that he could run onto. i remember modric committing players and a quick pass we had more men in attack. vdv, thudd, even as far back as carrick - some solid quick balls to catch the opposition off guard.

thoughts ?

 

[Raziel]

Our best football over the last 6 years has been when we "up the tempo" of the game

- either though raw physical pace with Bale, Lennon, Walker and even Rose
- or quick/sharp passing, quick transition via quick thinking players with Modric, VDV, Eriksen

HR's Spurs could be a killer counter attacking side. Under Poch at our best the tempo has been quick.

As a reference, I much prefer our version of pacey football vs. Pool & Manure who I find play a very 80's version of long ball to pacey runs, which quite honestly is awful to watch

 

[Gutter Boy]

It's important to (as you do) separate speed of passing from speed of runners.

To me quick runners are mainly associated with weak teams who play long balls. It's good to have a bit of pace somewhere in your front 4 as a threat, but I hate one-dimensional whippets like Agbonlahor and Walcott. Teams that dominate through possession like we tend to though, don't really need it that much

Quick passing/transitioning is very important though. The lack of it is what killed our game in the 2 year gap between Modric and Masaleb.

 

[braineclipse]

Pace is definitely important. But to exploit that pace other aspects have to be in place too. How many games have we watched Lennon essentially get nothing out of his pace on the right flank because of the game situation?

Meanwhile Chadli, whose quite a bit slower than Lennon, got quite a lot of joy out of Saudi Sportswashing Machine on the left hand side for example.

Kane isn't the quickest (deceptively quick or deceptively slow?), but released like he was for the third goal against Saudi Sportswashing Machine he was quick enough. We've seen quicker strikers than Kane play entire games without getting to actually use their pace.

It's important to (as you do) separate speed of passing from speed of runners.

To me quick runners are mainly associated with weak teams who play long balls. It's good to have a bit of pace somewhere in your front 4 as a threat, but I hate one-dimensional whippets like Agbonlahor and Walcott. Teams that dominate through possession like we tend to though, don't really need it that much

Quick passing/transitioning is very important though. The lack of it is what killed our game in the 2 year gap between Modric and Masaleb.

That is definitely a distinction worth making.

At the same time it's clear that just about every top team in the world has extreme pace in their teams. Bale and Ronaldo (and Benzema) at Real, Messi (and Neymar, Pedro) at Barca, and Robben and Ribery at Bayern just for some quick examples. The difference with those teams is that in addition to pace those players have a lot more about them, they're not just "speed merchants". And those teams have top quality technical players capable of releasing those players in good situations frequently.

--------------------------------

I wouldn't mind a pacey attacking player or two come in to our side in the summer. But I think getting the right technical abilities is just as important, if not more so.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Were crying out for a pacey player with technical skill who can get behind defenders.

What pace does is put defenders on the back foot and make them turn. A great player with pace will simply go round them.

It's one of Lamellas problems in that he never turns a defender and they defend him square on so he has no where go go. With Lennon for example you have to defend him side on as he is invariably quicker and the your job is to cut out the pass. Lennon rarely gets tackled but his passing can be the issue (which it isn't for Everton).

Our pace is allied to our width and that's expected to come from the full backs who are very fast players. If we added more pace in me of the attacking 3 we would be more explosive.

We were explosive against Chelsea as their defence is painfully slow and we exposed that but we struggled against sides that sat deep as we had no players to pull them out with speed (no good playing a one two if the player can't get there before a defender)

 

[braineclipse]

Were crying out for a pacey player with technical skill who can get behind defenders.

What pace does is put defenders on the back foot and make them turn. A great player with pace will simply go round them.

It's one of Lamellas problems in that he never turns a defender and they defend him square on so he has no where go go. With Lennon for example you have to defend him side on as he is invariably quicker and the your job is to cut out the pass. Lennon rarely gets tackled but his passing can be the issue (which it isn't for Everton).

Our pace is allied to our width and that's expected to come from the full backs who are very fast players. If we added more pace in me of the attacking 3 we would be more explosive.

We were explosive against Chelsea as their defence is painfully slow and we exposed that but we struggled against sides that sat deep as we had no players to pull them out with speed (no good playing a one two if the player can't get there before a defender)

What we've seen against Chelsea is again an indication that it depends more on game conditions than raw pace. When we beat them at home the Kane wonder goal turned the game, that forced them to go forward more and opened up space for us to attack on the break. In their home game and the cup final they were never in a situation where they had to allow space to be opened up. Chelsea's back 4 is fairly slow, but they're still winning the league so it's not like even players with average pace usually manage to expose that.

It takes a lot more than pace to pull a deep sitting, hard working, well organized team out of shape. Not saying it's not useful, but it's far from enough. Passing tempo and movement off the ball is key for me. At least I think that's necessary to set up pacey players in good situations where they can use their pace. We all loved seeing Bale in full gallop down the left, but he had to have space to run into. Like Lennon he was often neutralized when playing as a traditional winger by teams doubling up on him and sitting a bit deep. When space opened up and he was released he could be unstoppable though. How do you get more players into their "unstoppable" situations, for me passing tempo and movement off the ball.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Pace isn't the only answer but when you have little of it the defenders can focus on the passes

When you had it as a variant it makes defenders think more about how they play IMO

The reason the bale/Lennon option worked (for bale mainly as he was a better player) was because they had the pace oPtion as well as their technical ability

 

[Raziel]

Pace isn't the only answer but when you have little of it the defenders can focus on the passes

When you had it as a variant it makes defenders think more about how they play IMO

The reason the bale/Lennon option worked (for bale mainly as he was a better player) was because they had the pace oPtion as well as their technical ability

Pace is the one weapon most defenders hate ...

You are right re technical ability, one of Lennon's strengths is that he great ball control

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Pace is the one weapon most defenders hate ...

You are right re technical ability, one of Lennon's strengths is that he great ball control

I was never that quick at football so had to learn to use better technique.. When I played full back at a reasonable level I'd get murder by brick players who were bloody quick (((

 

[Gutter Boy]

Pace is the one weapon most defenders hate ...

You are right re technical ability, one of Lennon's strengths is that he great ball control

Pace is very easy to counter - you just defend deeper

It's defending pace whilst trying to play your own high pressing game that is a particular conundrum - and what catches us out against long ball teams like United and Villa

 

[Gutter Boy]

I was never that quick at football so had to learn to use better technique.. When I played full back at a reasonable level I'd get murder by crud players who were bloody quick (((

I'm not quick and often play at FB. I just play deeper and narrower if up against a quick winger. Most wingers can't do anything if you actually make them beat you, rather than getting too tight at halfway. Corluka is my FB role-model.

 

[parklane1]

We do lack pace in the side, I have always said we miss Lennon and have thought then we always looked a better side when he was in it.

 

[Raziel]

Pace is very easy to counter - you just defend deeper

It's defending pace whilst trying to play your own high pressing game that is a particular conundrum - and what catches us out against long ball teams like United and Villa

In theory, doesn't quite work that way ... the list of top tier players who repeatedly destroy sides by pace is long .. and the bigger validation of pace is watching the players who had it and lost it due to age/injuries and how much less effective they become instantly.

Re us, I agree, but its also our lack of aerial ability in CB's and suicidal FBs that add to the issue.

 

[awesome dawson]

Rose, Walker and Townsend are the only three that I'd class as pacey.

 

[heinoe]

I have said all season we lack pace. We need depay and konoplyanka , wingers that can challenge the opposition defence and give more space to Eriksen

 

[Bullet]

To use pace you need space to run into.

To get space you need to encourage the opposition onto you. That takes guts. Sit back, let them attack, let their fullbacks get excited... Hope they fudge it up and then BOOM BABY!

 

[metalgear]

Yeah but will we get it under poch ? He prefers to keep the ball in the opponent's half for long periods, his much talked about quick transitions never materialised, and he sent our quickest player on loan.

 

[spasm]

pace is nothing without hale..

 

[glasgowspur]

For me it's how we apply our pace, or don't, that's the problem.
Since AVB retaining the ball has been paramount and that means passing to feet, seldom in front of the player and actually it sometimes seems as if we pass to the back foot to protect the ball.
We are to risk averse going forward. There seems to be a lack of desire to play a forward ball into space unless it's sure to find someone.
Ponderous springs to mind. I'm of the opinion that is because we don't have anyone in midfield who can win the ball back quickly and that is our main summer target.

 

[NaijaSpurs]

I have said it time and time again in different threads that we lack both attacking pace and invention, and I have also expressed grave concern about Kane getting isolated. Yesterday it was a case of here we go again.

Having Eriksen running at full pace is simply not fast enough, Lamela and Dembele the same thing.