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F.A statement on the word "yid"

Discussion in 'Spurs News & Views' started by djp82, 11 Sep 2013.

?

Has the time come for us stop chanting the Y-word?

  1. Yes

    10 vote(s)
    9.1%
  2. No

    100 vote(s)
    90.9%
  1. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Young-Pyo Lee

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    Grew up in Essex in the 80s and always heard it. Went to loads of west ham games and it was rife in the ground and pre game pubs.

    Again in the early 2000s at uni, was a standard throw away insult i.e no foreskin etc.

    Personal experience both in life and going to a few aways
     
  2. Jon

    Jon Chris Armstrong

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    I think this is the part where I’m totally disconnected.

    I’m not Jewish so aren’t part of the “we”. I have no religion, and I find anything religious a bit irritating and extremely dull.

    I like to keep religion out of my football, in much the same way I would anticipate that the pope wouldn’t want me kicking a football down the middle of songs of praise constantly.
     
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  3. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Young-Pyo Lee

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    To put in a different way it was more we don't see it as an insult if you call us Jewish.
     
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  4. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Milija Aleksic

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    Its not religious in the grand sense though, no one is going round talking about the fundemental basis of the religion of leaflet dropping.

    Its a huge difference
     
  5. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    I understand it not being in your name. Two points. Yid and yid army has been about being a Spurs support first and foremost - for the last 35-40 years. Secondly, Yiddish is a language (that some eastern european Jews spoke 100 years ago). It's got nothing to do with religion.
     
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  6. ShipOfTheseus

    ShipOfTheseus Steed Malbranque

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    Israelis are not a very good guide to the sensibilities of diaspora British Jewry. Tell an Israeli that he has no sense of irony and he’d shrug. Then he’d probably barge his way to the front of a queue, or eat some humous, or start up a cloud security business, still not bothered a bit. British Jews are rather better at understanding the nuances of this stuff because - like anyone else born on these shores - we have grown up assuming that any chant or epithet is layered in multiple veils of meaning. It’s also easier to be attuned to the subtleties of identity politics and anti-racism when day-to-day interactions with potential anti-semites lack the excitement of Israeli conflicts.
     
  7. ShipOfTheseus

    ShipOfTheseus Steed Malbranque

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    Yiddish is a red herring here. “Yid” is most definitely a racial epithet, first and foremost. The citations from Aaronovitch, above, are bang on. You can’t define it from your own experience in a Spurs bubble.
     
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  8. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    I completely disagree.

    What has a racial term got to do with religion?

    To Spurs fans Yid is first and foremost a term like Hammer, Gooner etc, jewishness undoubtly second - if at all!
     
  9. ShipOfTheseus

    ShipOfTheseus Steed Malbranque

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    Being Jewish is a matter of religion, race and culture. The proportions vary according to how the identity is experienced, but no-one would deny that all three are implicated.
     
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  10. ShipOfTheseus

    ShipOfTheseus Steed Malbranque

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    Digs at cultures and religions associated with racial minorities are reasonably classed as racist, btw.
     
  11. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    @ShipOfGoldblum Chelsea supports are not critising Moses, the Torah, or a belief system, they are discriminating by race.

    I like what you're saying - subtalties, vieled meaning, growing up. I share that. Being jewish wasn't something overtly talked about or mentioned necessarily. There was much more anti-semitism. But from the mid 90s until recently it wasn't so evident. Something changed, and in that time yid started to lose its historic racial meaning.

    I guess I would like your thoughts on two things: would you ask gay people not to call themselves queer? Is there any pride in Spurs fans defying racist chants and nullifying them?
     
  12. Jon

    Jon Chris Armstrong

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    And nor should you Sir.
     
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  13. Jon

    Jon Chris Armstrong

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    Don’t get me going on leaflet droppers!..
     
  14. Jon

    Jon Chris Armstrong

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    See, I warned you I didn’t understand it all.

    I suspect that’s because it’s got absolutely nothing to with football! :D
     
  15. ShipOfTheseus

    ShipOfTheseus Steed Malbranque

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    I wouldn’t ask that of gay people, no.

    If a set of heterosexual “allies” took to camping it up and bellowing “queer army” at baffled passers-by, and gay people got a bit miffed, I’d side with the latter.

    I don’t see this as “defying” or “nullifying” racist chants. It’s almost a matter of nullificatory appropriation, if that is a thing.

    On whether Chelsea supporters are racist, I think we’re in total agreement. I suspect we’re on the same side concerning David Baddiel, as well.
     
  16. Jon

    Jon Chris Armstrong

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    Sweet, so I did get it from somewhere then! Phew! I’m alearning as I go, guys and gals.
     
  17. Jon

    Jon Chris Armstrong

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    Apologies for butting in, but I’d rather we didn’t get involved in that either!
    Trying to watch the football here; can’t we leave the various groups out of it altogether?
     
  18. Jon

    Jon Chris Armstrong

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    I think we all agree the aforementioned are just massive massive bell ends.
     
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  19. ShipOfTheseus

    ShipOfTheseus Steed Malbranque

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    /thread.
     
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  20. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Chris Perry

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    /thread too, but have to reply first.

    Spurs fans are not 'camping it up' - acting jewish or whatever the analogy would be. And I am pretty sure gay people would welcome solidarity and support from straight people in the face of bigots homophobic chants, condemning them for their sexuality. But for me now, yid is all about being a loyal Spurs supporter. I hope this recent pc stuff doesn't change that and turn back the clock to a more racalised term. Words evolve and change meaning. That's part of their fascination. With regard to having pride in spurs anti-racism, this letter to DB shows there is value to some jews in Spurs support:


    Dear David,
    Here we are again. The Y word. Or to refer to its real name, The C Word. Because as you and I both know this little problem is not about Spurs fans using the word Yid in a positive or negative manner. It’s about feeling uncomfortable at Chelsea games.

    I can appreciate where you are coming from. As a Jewish Tottenham fan myself, going to Stamford Bridge is an incredibly difficult day out for me. I’m 37 and I look like a typical NW London Jew. You and I would pick each other out as Jews from 100 yards at any holiday destination on Earth. I even have a brilliant Jewish hooter to top off the look. I am what I am. Getting off the tube at Fulham Broadway though, I might as well have that yellow star sewn to my coat, because you are quite right this is not what football is about. It’s a quite vile experience and as a father of two boys, one that I won’t be putting them through until they are a lot older, if at all. To be honest though, this is your problem and not mine. We turned an insult into a positive. All on our own. The gay community did it with the word ‘queer’. It’s quite clever really. Quite why you suggest that those who turned the insult into a term of fraternity should lead the way, so those that use it as a racial insult can be told not to use it, is quite frankly illogical.

    Chelsea, West Ham, Leeds. These are the three places where I have heard the gassing noises and felt that pang of nausea in my stomach. A pang you describe and which I’m sure you feel somewhat ashamed about. Be that as it may, Tottenham on a match day is probably the safest environment in England for a Jewish person. Isn’t that lovely? My family have 4 tickets and we are reform Jews. However I often give any spares to two ultra orthodox Spurs fans. They both wear kippot and one of them looks like every rabbi you’ve ever seen in your haggadah. They get cheered through the streets of Tottenham. They love it! People smile at them, chant ‘Yiddo’ at them and they wear their spurs shirts and their tzitzit with pride. How wonderful is that? In an era where there is so much bitterness and negativity, these two fellas can enjoy their football and their religion and feel totally safe. Thirty years ago that might have not been the case as the bananas hailed down on black wingers and coins were thrown at Jews to see if they would pick them up.

    David, I am a huge fan of your work, but in this you are so wide of the mark that I find your view offensive. I find what you are trying to do, actually borderline anti-semetic. Don’t hide away the victims and shut them up because it makes your match day experience difficult. This is Chelsea’s problem. This is West Ham’s problem. This is Leeds United’s problem.

    In Germany in 1933, SS men stood outside Jewish shops to deter anyone from entering. In 1934, buses, trains and park benches had seats marked out for us to sit on and our children were taught specifically anti-semetic ideas. In 1935 the Nuremberg Law was passed and Jews lost their rights to be German citizens and marriage between Jews and non-Jews became illegal. You know how this story ends.

    In 2013 Jews and non Jews in a small corner of London, are united. Please please please, don’t f**k that up.
     
    Last edited: 7 Jan 2019

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