F.A statement on the word "yid"

[Hootnow]

Yeah I find the Sol Campbell songs a bit unnecessary now. I immensely dislike the guy and probably always will but he left us nearly 20 years ago, isn’t it time we moved on and sung songs about something else?

As for the Y word, as long as the Jewish contingent within our fan base don’t mind us singing it then I don’t see why we should stop using it. Surely more needs to be done to stop Arse, Chelsea and WHU fans saying it?

The Jewish contingent within our fanbase is not homogenous. I've definitely met Jewish, British Spurs fans for instance who pointedly don't sing it and have told me they don't feel comfortable with it and would prefer we don't sing it. And on the flip side, I've seen Israeli Jews coming over for a game and fully embracing it and screaming it at the top of their lungs.

 

[scaramanga]

On the flip side of that, is the current use of the word by opposing fans, when our % of Jewish fans is likely no greater than Arsenal's, at least partly linked to the fact that opposing fans constantly hear us referring to ourselves as 'yids' in some way or another? If you're constantly hearing us sing yid army, we are the yids of WHL etc etc, you're surely going to think it is fair game to refer to us as yids.

This is of course excluding the macaronic fans who sign the term with clear anti semitic intent.

I feel us continuing to sing it is increasingly becoming like that song man Utd fans sing about Lukaku's dingdong or when Ji Sung Park was there and the dogs I believe. Both players asked them to stop, the fans carried on singing, even saying why would Lukaku be upset when we are being 'complimentary' about his dingdong?

Having said that, while I think the Jewish Congress should be listened to and consulted with, I think it is quite unfair of them to lump in how we use the word (and have historically used it) and how Chelsea and WH fans for instance often use it, when it can be accompanied with songs about gas chambers, Hitler and circumcision. Want us to stop using it, fair enough and there is certainly a valid point there. But please don't lump it all in together.

Also, I personally am not a big fan of black people calling themselves or their friends niggers either, though it is still incredibly different to a white person calling me a nigger for example.

This is where I have an issue with the statement. Any group that can commend Chelsea's work on stopping their derogatory use of the word has either been bought or simply isn't paying attention.

No sane person can look at that club and see anything other than lip service being paid and nothing real done to stop a large contingent of their fans abusing black and Jewish players and fans. It's so ingrained into that club that if anyone ever did anything about it, they'd be playing in front of 15-20k every home match.

 

[DubaiSpur]

This is where I have an issue with the statement. Any group that can commend Chelsea's work on stopping their derogatory use of the word has either been bought or simply isn't paying attention.

No sane person can look at that club and see anything other than lip service being paid and nothing real done to stop a large contingent of their fans abusing black and Jewish players and fans. It's so ingrained into that club that if anyone ever did anything about it, they'd be playing in front of 15-20k every home match.

This. It's definitely important to remain objective and removed from football tribalism when assessing an issue like this. But, even objectively, Chelsea's usage of the word and Spurs' usage of the word can't be compared in any way, shape or form - and neither can our response to racism when compared with Chelsea's, which is truly laughable.

Any organization that makes an equivalence between the two just isn't paying attention. And, in the case of the World Jewish Congress, I suspect this is just one of many items they issue statements on - which leads me to question if they looked into this one as closely as some of the other, more prominent issues they deal with.

 

[Yermiyahu]

This. It's definitely important to remain objective and removed from football tribalism when assessing an issue like this. But, even objectively, Chelsea's usage of the word and Spurs' usage of the word can't be compared in any way, shape or form - and neither can our response to racism when compared with Chelsea's, which is truly laughable.

Any organization that makes an equivalence between the two just isn't paying attention. And, in the case of the World Jewish Congress, I suspect this is just one of many items they issue statements on - which leads me to question if they looked into this one as closely as some of the other, more prominent issues they deal with.

I'm pretty well qualified to speak about the world Jewish Congress and I can assure you that they won't have looked very closely at this whatsoever. It's prominently American run and led and in all honesty they probably haven't a clue beyond ' soccerball'.
I'm frankly amazed that they are even aware of the issue. I have a feeling Abramovich probably brought it to thier attention.

 

[SpurMeUp]

If “Yid” was used anywhere else, then these muppets with too much time on their hands might have a point. But the term only means Spurs supporter, as in goon at arsenal.

The only people imbuing the term with racial significance are the likes of this Congress and David Badtaco. Everyone else had moved on.

Oh and Spurs fans who are interested in the clubs history, who might research the term, should take pride in its anti-racist roots standing up to antisemitism, not that anyone does now... unless these do gooders now create a refreshed racial term out of a football fans nick name.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Moby]

I just think the whole thing about us using it ‘positively’ doesn’t in reality actually work.

It perpetuates the whole perception of spurs being Jewish, which in turn is a magnet for increasing the amount of abuse from macaronic opposition fans.

That then breaks down into two large groups of chanting supporters signing songs about jews, and the general public have difficult differentiating between who is doing it in a positive way, and who in a hate filled negative way. (what with it being a game of association football, not a race/religious forum)

We’re possibly being ‘too clever for our own good’ here...

Could we somehow manage to stop doing it, sing relevant songs about Tottenham instead, and leave race/religion out of it altogether? Then it would be easy to let the authorities deal with the opposition fans who maintain a different non-footballing agenda.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I just think the whole thing about us using it ‘positively’ doesn’t in reality actually work.

It perpetuates the whole perception of spurs being Jewish, which in turn is a magnet for increasing the amount of abuse from macaronic opposition fans.

That then breaks down into two large groups of chanting supporters signing songs about jews, and the general public have difficult differentiating between who is doing it in a positive way, and who in a hate filled negative way. (what with it being a game of association football, not a race/religious forum)

We’re possibly being ‘too clever for our own good’ here...

Could we somehow manage to stop doing it, sing relevant songs about Tottenham instead, and leave race/religion out of it altogether? Then it would be easy to let the authorities deal with the opposition fans who maintain a different non-footballing agenda.

I think there is a lot of presumption there, that may not be accurate? Do we use the term in a racial sense? I don’t think any Spurs fans do. It’s only this recent gonad*s since Badeal that has brought any racial significance to it. Ironic. Especially as he was trying to deflect from Chelsea’s overt racism. That’s what upsets me, its the so called politically correct voices who are creating racial significance, when the term had all but lost any association with a Jewish language. Yiddish isn’t a common term but is used rarely referring to a language only (a language only spoken by tiny minority of Jews now). Yid, until recently, was a term for Spurs like Goon. You’d probably have to go back to the 1970s to find people using Yid as a word to determine race, and even then I don’t think it was used a lot.

Not using a word that is ours, has history and is part of our culture, will not stop chelsea supporters being racist.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[billyiddo]

Wherever you stand on the issue surely the horse has already bolted?

Im mid 30s and have used the word in a non derogatory sense as long as i can remember, afaic the word is synonymous with Spurs fans, it's too late to change that now and imv we have a fair claim to the word ourselves, such is the length of time it has been used (and the background of why it was used in the first place) - words develop and change meaning over time afterall.

Id probably support leaving the Star of David iconography in the past in an effort to move away from the link to Israel/Judaism but really the onus should be on putting a stop to those being abusive and the argument that we use the word so are fair game to have antisemitism directed towards us is a weak one, especially when orignally it was the abuse which led to us taking up the nickname in the first place. If it went no further than "fudging yid" etc then you could argue we are the catalyst however the issue is and always will be the hissing, hitler and foreskin songs which all goes beyond simply targetting Spurs fans only.

Beyond the word Yid itself and the odd flag with the SoD on we don't play up to stereotypes of Israel or Jewish people, we don't sing song songs which blur the lines between the two and the club itself doesn't portray that image either and with that in mind there's no argument to be made that we invite that kind of abuse.

 

[Grays_1890]

I just think the whole thing about us using it ‘positively’ doesn’t in reality actually work.

It perpetuates the whole perception of spurs being Jewish, which in turn is a magnet for increasing the amount of abuse from macaronic opposition fans.

That then breaks down into two large groups of chanting supporters signing songs about jews, and the general public have difficult differentiating between who is doing it in a positive way, and who in a hate filled negative way. (what with it being a game of association football, not a race/religious forum)

We’re possibly being ‘too clever for our own good’ here...

Could we somehow manage to stop doing it, sing relevant songs about Tottenham instead, and leave race/religion out of it altogether? Then it would be easy to let the authorities deal with the opposition fans who maintain a different non-footballing agenda.

No because the word alone Yid which comes from Yiddish is not alone a racist term, I am Jewish and can and have used the words on many occasions. My Grandad would use the term to describe someone who is a very traditional Jew "He is such a Yid" meant as a term of endearment. I am not going to nor is a large part of the Jewish community going to stop using the word because someone uses the word with racial intent by putting F word or Dirty in front of it.

I am a Yid and I am proud to be so, I am not however a effing Yid, an effing yid Cnut or a dirty yid which is where the difference lies, nor should I be hissed at like I am burning in a gas chamber

 

[Yermiyahu]

No because the word alone Yid which comes from Yiddish is not alone a racist term, I am Jewish and can and have used the words on many occasions. My Grandad would use the term to describe someone who is a very traditional Jew "He is such a Yid" meant as a term of endearment. I am not going to nor is a large part of the Jewish community going to stop using the word because someone uses the word with racial intent by putting F word or Dirty in front of it.

I am a Yid and I am proud to be so, I am not however a effing Yid, an effing yid Cnut or a dirty yid which is where the difference lies, nor should I be hissed at like I am burning in a gas chamber

Well said.

 

[jts1882]

A balanced view from David Aaronovitch in today's Times:

Why Tottenham supporters chant the Y word, and why I do not mind
David Aaronovitch

Three weeks ago, up in the stratospheric heights of Barcelona’s Nou Camp stadium, locked in behind plastic screens and wire netting, 4,000 Tottenham fans greeted the news of the team’s unlikely qualification to the next round of the Champions League with their favourite song. It goes like this:

We sang it in France,
We sang it in Spain,
We sing in the sun and we sing in the rain,
They tried to stop us, but look what it did,
Cos the thing I love most is being a Yid.
Being a Yid, being a Yid,
The thing I love most is being a Yid.

“Yid” is the derogatory term that the British far right has traditionally used for Jews. In the 1930s Oswald Mosley’s Blackshirts would chant “the Yids, the Yids, we’ve got to get rid of the Yids”. And because Spurs had been seen as the team with most Jewish supporters going back to the Twenties, when in the 1960s and 1970s the far right infiltrated some of the hooligan groups associated with football supporters, the word “Yid” began to be part of the abuse hurled at Spurs fans.

In their book A People’s History Of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club, Martin Cloake and Alan Fisher write that “the chant ‘does your rabbi know you’re here?’ was mild and amusing compared with the rest. ‘I’ve never felt more like gassing the Jews . . .’, ‘one man went to gas, went to gas a yiddo . . .’, ‘Spurs are on their way to Auschwitz, Hitler’s gonna gas ’em again . . .’”

In my experience of the period (and since) the worst fans for this kind of abuse belonged to Chelsea and West Ham United. Their hooligans had, I believe, the most developed far right links.

But in this instance Spurs fans reacted in a gloriously imaginative way. They took over the word. They owned it and they started calling themselves “Yiddos”. In many ways it was an “I am Spartacus” act of solidarity with Jewish fans.

The Barcelona song itself dates from 2013, the last time that, in an effort to suppress antisemitic taunts from rival fans, the attempt was made to coerce Spurs fans from their self-identification. The logic was that if Spurs fans stopped calling themselves Yids, then rival fans would drop the racism.

Some of my best friends are Chelsea-supporting Jews. They’ve told me what it’s like to have your own people, inches away from you, yelling about gassing Jews. And galling to feel that one reason it is happening is because Spurs fans, mainly non-Jews, are identifying as “Yids”. I too would be upset.

Maybe one day all this will fade away. But as the authorities discovered in 2013, when attempts at prosecuting Spurs fans for using the Y-word failed, context is everything. A word or a phrase is only abuse if you’re using it to abuse. Still, it’s an unlovely word and hopefully if rival fans were dissuaded from antisemitism for a period of years, its defiant but non-abusive use would fade into history. Till then, however, they’ll sing it in France, and they’ll sing it in Spain . . .​

 

[r-u-s-x]

If the word is truly offensive in any context, then I’d be happy to replace it with something else that reflects my positive intentions when using it - even though I’m not Jewish by being a Spurs fan I find the anti Semitic songs and chants particularly from Chelsea and West Ham (i’d Rather be a pxxx than a jxx) abhorrent.

I would say with confidence that Yid when we first used the word it was offensive but common place and really depended on context. (similar to Only fools and horses when Del told a child to "pop down to the Paki shop".)

My point being that when the word was first picked up by us it was not really an issue / offensive in the same way as now and would be fairly normal to use in conversation, since then when we use the word it has whole new meaning (language evolves) and although the roots are the same as the now offensive word they are not the same thing. We are no longer really referring to being Jewish when using Yid Army*, there are no racist or abusive intentions. I personally don't have a problem with other teams saying they hate the Yids as long as it doesn't also come with the anti-sematic stuff (covertly or overtly).

I have issues with stopping something because some people are offended, especially if this offense is unwarranted.

*although this is part of our clubs history

 

[SpurMeUp]

Sadly it looks like the natural evolution of the word away from its racial origin, which had started, has now been halted - ironically predominantly by people who are critical of any racial discrimination. Spurs supporters under 35 didn’t have much idea of Yiddish or the history of the term until Baddiel came along, and I think only Chelsea were still chanting racist slurs and then only a very few supporters. But that has maybe changed now.

I wonder if those who want to criticise, would also condemn gay people for referring to themselves as queer?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[r-u-s-x]

Sadly it looks like the natural evolution of the word away from its racial origin, which had started, has now been halted - ironically predominantly by people who are critical of any racial discrimination. Spurs supporters under 35 didn’t have much idea of Yiddish or the history of the term until Baddiel came along, and I think only Chelsea were still chanting racist slurs and then only a very few supporters. But that has maybe changed now.

I wonder if those who want to criticise, would also condemn gay people for referring to themselves as queer?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Loads of fans of other teams still use it in its original meaning - West ham as much as Chelsea and a load of northern fans. it is not a Baddiel thing but the fact others use it in this manner should not stop us using it as per the past 40 years.

 

[MKSpur]

David Aaronovitch
Some of my best friends are Chelsea-supporting Jews. They’ve told me what it’s like to have your own people, inches away from you, yelling about gassing Jews. And galling to feel that one reason it is happening is because Spurs fans, mainly non-Jews, are identifying as “Yids”. I too would be upset.​

This is the angle that I don’t like - it shouldn’t be be galling because Spurs fans identify as yids, it’s galling because the ignorant anti Semitic scum think it’s acceptable to sing such songs. Would black Chelsea fans prefer there are no black players in football as this would prevent a recurrence of the recent racist behaviour.

I’m open to discussion on who may be offended by what we use as a solidarity chant, but the Jewish Chelsea fans are looking in completely the wrong place for the root cause of what’s upsetting them.

Are there any other examples like this, say at Brighton the the homophobic taunts that used to be aimed at them?

 

[Moby]

No because the word alone Yid which comes from Yiddish is not alone a racist term, I am Jewish and can and have used the words on many occasions. My Grandad would use the term to describe someone who is a very traditional Jew "He is such a Yid" meant as a term of endearment. I am not going to nor is a large part of the Jewish community going to stop using the word because someone uses the word with racial intent by putting F word or Dirty in front of it.

I am a Yid and I am proud to be so, I am not however a effing Yid, an effing yid Cnut or a dirty yid which is where the difference lies, nor should I be hissed at like I am burning in a gas chamber

Which bit were you saying no to, sorry?

Im very reluctant to respond to too much, as clearly this topic always incites passionate responses such as yours. I certainly don’t wish to offend anybody or anyone on the topic of their clearly proud heritage, their right to represent themselves how they wish, and their basic human right to receive respect from all.

I guess fundamentally, I just don’t get what it’s all got to do with football. :-(

 

[SpurMeUp]

Loads of fans of other teams still use it in its original meaning - West ham as much as Chelsea and a load of northern fans. it is not a Baddiel thing but the fact others use it in this manner should not stop us using it as per the past 40 years.

Now maybe. But I didn't hear much outside of chelsea before the term was flagged up as a racial term a few years ago. Out of interest how do you know other fans use it?

 

[Grays_1890]

Which bit were you saying no to, sorry?

Im very reluctant to respond to too much, as clearly this topic always incites passionate responses such as yours. I certainly don’t wish to offend anybody or anyone on the topic of their clearly proud heritage, their right to represent themselves how they wish, and their basic human right to receive respect from all.

I guess fundamentally, I just don’t get what it’s all got to do with football. :-(

Its not so much passion as a point of fact. Many words have been taken by people and used in a negative, does not make the word or term in itself negative, its the intent.

What it has to do with football, well thats true, however a club is also its heritage as much as being a club being from where you come from and singing about that.

Ultimately we the fans are saying when using the term Yid or Yiddo is "yeh we are Jewish and yeah we are proud", nowt wrong with that.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Its not so much passion as a point of fact. Many words have been taken by people and used in a negative, does not make the word or term in itself negative, its the intent.

What it has to do with football, well thats true, however a club is also its heritage as much as being a club being from where you come from and singing about that.

Ultimately we the fans are saying when using the term Yid or Yiddo is "yeh we are Jewish and yeah we are proud", nowt wrong with that.

To be honest, I don't think we - this generation - were even doing that. Just a term like Hammer or whatever. Yes it was a way of nullifying racismin the past. Like gay people taking on the term queer themselves to nutralise the hate of others. But it was an aweful long time ago that Spurs fans showed solidarity with jews. 40-50 years ago right!? Or more? When did Spurs fans first chant Yid in unison?

 

[Grays_1890]

To be honest, I don't think we were even doing that. Just a term like Hammer or whatever. Yes it was a way of nullifying racismin the past. Like gay people taking on the term queer themselves to nutralise the hate of others. But it was an aweful long time ago that Spurs fans showed solidarity with jews. Well over 40 years ago right!?

Well its in the blood from whenever and people will have their own reason.

I think alot of this two fingers up at the oppo for being racist as a result was by accident to be honest.

Regardless what I am getting down to is, is it bad for people to use Yid as a badge of honour, no its not.