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F.A statement on the word "yid"

Has the time come for us stop chanting the Y-word?

  • Yes

    Votes: 10 9.0%
  • No

    Votes: 101 91.0%

  • Total voters
    111
No problem with chanting 'Paki Army' every week or 'paki, paki, paki' at an Asian player, for example? We'd already have had the points deducted and games behind closed doors by now and it would have long since stopped!

If we just started now yes, but if we started in solidarity in the 70's when Paki was more or less an every day word (it was pretty accepted in the 80's when I grew up) it woudl be a different story.

We did not pick a Taboo word in Yid, it was what everybody called Jews at the time it was not inflamitory. Society has changed and language is also transient.

You are not making a fair comparison.
 
With all this **** political correctness going on I'm glad Shrewsbury moved ground in 2006. Think of the field day the PC people would have had.
 
Harry, great work on debating this, it's good to get another point of view.

However, I have to take issue with you saying it's just one or two people in the ground making the chants, the hissing is loud and clear even from sitting in Paxton upper! I don't mean this as an accusation, but do you get to the lane much these days for the Chelsea, west ham games? It's still hugely vocal anti Jewish support they have in the ground.
 
We did not pick a Taboo word in Yid

Utterly ridiculous, fella. Alf Garnett was on TV most weeks in the 70s banging on about the 'Yids' at Spurs. And it definitely wasn't written in a positive way. We were meant to be laughing at his bigotry but plenty were laughing with him and nodding in agreement. Going back further, the Blackshirts used to chant 'The Yids, The Yids, we've got to get rid of The Yids'. In Britain, Yid and Paki have always been about racism. ****, 'Paki' bashing started in the 70s. That is how it became a bade of honour in the first place.
 
Utterly ridiculous, fella. Alf Garnett was on TV most weeks in the 70s banging on about the 'Yids' at Spurs. And it definitely wasn't written in a positive way. We were meant to be laughing at his bigotry but plenty were laughing with him and nodding in agreement. Going back further, the Blackshirts used to chant 'The Yids, The Yids, we've got to get rid of The Yids'. In Britain, Yid and Paki have always been about racism. ****, 'Paki' bashing started in the 70s. That is how it became a bade of honour in the first place.

I think you seem to be confusing the intent of how the word may be used. Words aren't bad it is the intent behind the word.
 
I have to ask r-u-s-k where you lived in the 80's for the word 'Paki' to be almost acceptable? Growing up in Wood Green it sure as hell wasn't. Seeing NF daubed on walls was pretty common - from memory the racism was directed more at people with darker skin. We had neighbours (skinheads) with a dog called 'Blackie' who was taught to bark at black people. Pretty nasty times (and I probably didn't know the half of it being pretty young). There was quite a conflict in the late 70's and 80's that eventually led to riots.
 
In a similar situation the Washington Redskins are currently being taken to court by Native Americans in order to force a name change on them, a situation that made Robert Griffin III, their QB, say "In a land of freedom we are held hostage by the tyranny of political correctness".
 
So, are the Met/FA/Black Lawyers going to take action about this irrefutable use of anti-semitic language?

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Or maybe you can actually use it endearingly :lol:
 
82% of Jewish people are either supportive or neutral to it. Only 6% are actively "uncomfortable" with it (I wonder how many different IP addresses Peter Herbert and David Baddiel could find to use to vote from!). The stats are similar for gentiles too.

#debateover


http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/y-word-consultation-update-210314/

In October 2013 the Club commissioned the independent research consultancy Populus to conduct a fan consultation on its behalf regarding Tottenham Hotspur fans’ use of the Y-word. The Club delayed the reporting of the outcome of this research whilst three legal cases in respect of our fans arrested for using the Y-word were underway. The Crown Prosecution Service has decided not to proceed with those prosecutions and we are now able to outline the findings of the consultation.

An online consultation was sent to all One Hotspur Season Ticket Holders and Members. Respondents were presented with a variety of differing, publicly articulated arguments and views on the use of the Y-word and then given the opportunity to write a free text response detailing their own opinions on the subject.

The response to the survey was overwhelming with almost 11,500 completed consultations received. We should like to take this opportunity to thank fans that participated for providing such detailed, articulate and heartfelt responses on the subject.

The Club has read each and every comment provided in order to gain a thorough understanding of all the sentiments expressed and then asked Populus to undertake a more detailed sentiment analysis of a representative sample. This analysis was carried out on a highly robust and representative subsample of non-Jewish fans, and given the context and history of the word, the Club felt it was also important to include all responses from Jewish fans in this extra analysis.

The outcome of these exercises has clearly demonstrated the complex and evolving nature of this issue.

Fans Usage

The consultation that was carried out, showed that, whilst the majority of all the respondents, 67%, stated that they regularly chanted the word in a football match situation, virtually all qualified this behaviour by putting this into context and outlining many of the issues associated with its use.

The follow-up sentiment analysis carried out by Populus showed that 74% of non-Jewish respondents and 73% of Jewish respondents were generally in favour of fans being allowed to use the Y-word while 12% of non-Jewish respondents and 8% of Jewish respondents stated that they were either unsure or held a neutral position on whether fans should be allowed to continue to use the word.

History of the Word

Some supporters outlined in their comments how the term came into use in response to anti-Semitic chanting from rival supporters with a significant proportion of fans (39% of non-Jewish respondents and 29% of Jewish respondents) stating that the word was part of Spurs’ “heritage and identity”.

One fan explained, “I remember standing at White Hart Lane in the 1970s and 80s while rival supporters especially from London Clubs chanted anti-Semitic songs ... Once the Spurs supporters adopted the word as their own identity then the rival chanting ceased.”

A number of our supporters also explained that the term was now “a sign of togetherness, part of our history and heritage” and was viewed as a “badge of honour” sung by fans because they “are proud to be part of Tottenham”.

Intent and Context

Many fans (46% of non-Jewish respondents and 40% of Jewish respondents) did identify however that the context and intent was an important consideration in this debate. One fan said “I think context is the key thing, which determines if any word is offensive, or not. When used by Spurs fans, the term ‘Yid’ is a sign of respect saying ‘you’re one of us’. Most of us are not Jewish; that does not matter because the word is not being used literally.”

Another fan explained, “I consider myself a respectful person and would never use the term ‘Yid’ to cause offence to another supporter or member of the public. The use of the word at the Lane is always in reference to ourselves and therefore intends to cause no harm or distress to others.”

Where fans identified context, many also recognised that context is subjective; and that offence can be taken, even when not intended.

Concerns raised about continued use

A number of supporters, (12% of non-Jewish respondents and 18% of Jewish respondents) outlined that they were against allowing fans to continue to use the term with 4% of non-Jewish fans and 6% of Jewish fans specifically stating that they were personally uncomfortable with its use.

One fan said, “As a Jew I feel the Y-word is socially and morally wrong”, while another stated “I believe we need to drop the Y-word at Spurs because I would not be comfortable to take my children to games and have to explain the fans are singing the Y-word and what it means, especially in the context of the historical persecution of the Jews across Europe.”

13% of the non-Jewish fans were of the view that if people found the term offensive it should be dropped (compared with 4% of Jewish respondents), while a number of fans (8% of non-Jewish respondents and 9% of Jewish respondents) specifically identified that it was now time to phase out the use of the term, with fans citing a number of different reasons as to why. One fan clarified that “even if there is just one fan – Spurs or non-Spurs – who is genuinely offended by the use of the term, then that is one fan too many.”

Another fan explained, “Whether used in the context of direct or anti-Semitic abuse, or as a kind of pre-emptive strike against such abuse, ‘Yid’ retains a negative and aggressive quality. For that reason alone I would urge Spurs fans, whatever their motive, not to use it.”

Notably, 6% of Jewish supporters, used the confidentiality of this consultation to identify that they found the term to be genuinely offensive (compared with less than 1% of non-Jewish respondents). One fan commented “I am not Jewish, but I find the use of the term offensive, embarrassing and inappropriate in the modern world.” While another fan explained “I fully appreciate that in most cases the Y-word is used to describe a Spurs fan, but to those of us who are Jewish and certainly to me it is offensive.”

This consultation has shown that many supporters acknowledge that the use of the word needs to be re-assessed and that, whilst our fans and the law recognise the importance of context, ultimately context is not the only consideration.

We would ask all our fans to give due consideration to the varied sentiments and opinions expressed, in order to ensure that the support of our Club is inclusive and forward–looking.
 
I think this report bears out what most Spurs fans thought about the issue, but I don't think it will be the end of the debate. Spurs fans may not be offended by the use of the word or mean to offend others but it will. It is like other taboo words: N*****, Q**** & D*** which are used by people in these groups to either shock or display solidarity. I personally as a non-Jewish (or should it be Hebrew?) Spurs fan would like to see it fade away, but in this world where sport and anything related to it are taken totally out of proportion to their importance that's unlikely
 
I think this report bears out what most Spurs fans thought about the issue, but I don't think it will be the end of the debate. Spurs fans may not be offended by the use of the word or mean to offend others but it will. It is like other taboo words: N*****, Q**** & D*** which are used by people in these groups to either shock or display solidarity. I personally as a non-Jewish (or should it be Hebrew?) Spurs fan would like to see it fade away, but in this world where sport and anything related to it are taken totally out of proportion to their importance that's unlikely

Ironically it was fading away. Before Beddiel and Herbert made a lot of it, most post 80s Spurs fans had no idea about the terms history. It wasn't a big deal and Yid was just an equivalent to Goon or other names used by supports. If you did scratch the surface and look into Spurs history and the origins of the term, I think most would be proud of the togetherness of their forefathers, sticking up for each other in the face of racism.

Just a shame that Beddiel and co stopped the natural evolution of the term and re-imbued it with racial meaning that it had almost lost. Maybe the social/ linguistic process will start again and in 20 or 30 years time, someone will start a thread on here asking: why are we called Yiddos?
 
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I really do not care what non spurs fans think about anything.

I remember watching a t.v. show recently about a Muslim girl who went around asking people whether they thought female genital circumcision was acceptable, most so as not to offend here said yes it was. People in this country are so scared of being seen as bigoted that they do not engage their brain and think about things. It has got to the point where I am fast not caring what British people think about anything.
 
If 6% of Jews really are genuinely offended at the use of this word then I wouldn't use it.

I really do not care what non spurs fans think about anything.

I remember watching a t.v. show recently about a Muslim girl who went around asking people whether they thought female genital circumcision was acceptable, most so as not to offend here said yes it was. People in this country are so scared of being seen as bigoted that they do not engage their brain and think about things. It has got to the point where I am fast not caring what British people think about anything.

So can you have a thoughtful bigot then?
 
If 6% of Jews really are genuinely offended at the use of this word then I wouldn't use it.

The word was uncomfortable, not offended.

6% of people probably voted for UKIP and the BNP in the last election. In a democracy 6% is a real 'fringe', about as close to negligible as you get.
 
Ironically it was fading away. Before Beddiel and Herbert made a lot of it, most post 80s Spurs fans had no idea about the terms history. It wasn't a big deal and Yid was just an equivalent to Goon or other names used by supports. If you did scratch the surface and look into Spurs history and the origins of the term, I think most would be proud of the togetherness of their forefathers, sticking up for each other in the face of racism.

Just a shame that Beddiel and co stopped the natural evolution of the term and re-imbued it with racial meaning that it had almost lost. Maybe the social/ linguistic process will start again and in 20 or 30 years time, someone will start a thread on here asking: why are we called Yiddos?

Frankly, I think that is rubbish. The term is ladened with history and you would have to be completely ignorant to chant it without knowing that.
 
Frankly, I think that is rubbish. The term is ladened with history and you would have to be completely ignorant to chant it without knowing that.

..and I think that is rubbish in turn.

1. There were posters on here who expressed they didn't know that Yid had any racial significant. They were surprised. Until recently no one mentioned it, why should any supporters know about something that occurred decades ago. I didn't know about it and I'm 36.

2. Do you really think that when people say - Your a Yido - they mean anything at all to do with your ethnicity!!?

3. Do Spurs fans chant Yido as term of affection because they think Jermain Defoe or anyone else is Jewish?

Words and cultures evolve. Unfortunately, because of the 'analysts' over the last few years, we don't remember that Yid had become akin to Goon etc. You can't police language. But language, culture and meaning can develop over time.

Edit: forgot my own age :)
 
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If 6% of Jews really are genuinely offended at the use of this word then I wouldn't use it.



So can you have a thoughtful bigot then?

Sure you can, a lot of people with have a prejudice against something, but they will try their best to negate it. My wife despite being a very liberal person is opposed to same sex couples raising children, I guess it is her Catholic upbringing. But despite this bigotry she is thoughtful to their feelings when ever she meets them. The is a same sex couple in our sons class at school.

She is thoughtful and does not mention her views on the subject in front of them, but is part of a church group who advocate a change in the law.

My view on it is that the majority in this country like myself do not care if same sex couples raise children. I think really most of the time the majority should be listened to and a lot of things started getting silly when we listened to small sections of society protesting about stuff. I am thinking about the NIMBYS who moan about wind turbines etc.
 
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