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Eric Dier

Discussion in 'Spurs News & Views' started by Jordinho, 31 Jul 2014.

  1. the dza

    the dza Johnny Morrison

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    I think you are vastly under-rating Wanyama as a footballer. When he's fully fit and on form, he's probably the best defensive midfielder at the club, though who knows if we'll ever see that again. In terms of attacking movement, Wanyama gets into more goal-scoring positions than Dier, he can also beat a man with dribbling and fire in the odd shot (Liverpool away, wasn't bad technique was it?!).

    Re. Sissoko, if Guardiola was in charge of these players, he'd still use Sissoko. When they are all fit, Sissoko would be a squad player, but Guardiola (football purist) still has a use for players like this, even when the very best technicians are available to him. An example would be how he always used Keita off the bench for peak-Barca, even though Iniesta and Xavi were infinitely better technical players. Sometimes, the situation just called for a bit of athleticism, go on the pitch and keep it simple. Even with, arguably, the best football team of all time.

    I don't think anyone is calling for the team to be built around Sissoko, but you can still acknowledge that players of this type have a use in a top side. Sissoko of this season has been a very efficient and effective player who can play in a few different positions in the team. When he's been sh1t, I've said he's been sh1t. But he has been excellent this season. With our injuries, he's been vital to us churning out results.

    Anyway, that Eric Dier... :D
     
    Rorschach likes this.
  2. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Rafael Van Der Vaart

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    Why does Sissokos athleticism get held up as a defining attribute? Because he isnt that good at football, so its basically all he has.

    Why does Sissokos athleticism get held up as a defining attribute over our other playes? A much more interesting question. He is clearly among the best specimines in the squad, I dont disagree. But is always framed as if he is the only one, which is patently incorrect. Every one of our players (bar maybe Eriksen!) puts in the physical work. In both the hard running as well as challenges. Lets assume Sissoko is the best at it (he's not) even then, its not by a particularly wide margin.

    So why does Sissokos athleticism get held up as a defining attribute over our other playes? Because if it wasnt there really wouldnt be any basis for all the support he rallies on here, would there?

    When we bought him I thought he was a pure destroyer, a bit of an agricultural unit, and wasnt sold on the idea at all.

    He proved a much better player than I had anticipated.
     
    scaramanga likes this.
  3. the dza

    the dza Johnny Morrison

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    If Sissoko is really as incapable at football as you think, then why does Poch pick him? Why not play Skipp in his place? You know the answer.
     
    thfcsteff likes this.
  4. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Rafael Van Der Vaart

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    Skipps a child who isnt ready to play a full season of mens football.

    Sissoko is the least worse option. That he plays doesnt suggest otherwise.

    To play your own game, if Wanyama and Dembele were fit all season, would Sissoko have played anywhere near as much? You know the answer.
     
  5. the dza

    the dza Johnny Morrison

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    Wanyama and Dembele have the athleticism part covered.

    I'm guessing you rate Skipp's passing etc. What is it that he lacks that Sissoko has a sh1t ton of? Experience...and...ATHLETICISM. Yet you are wondering why people hold up that trait as an explanation for Sissoko's selection! It's pretty phucking obvious.
     
  6. indospurs

    indospurs Eidur Gudjohnsen

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    I think Dier is a very flexible type of player, protects the back four well. Just wished he'd score again - another attacking threat to cause more headaches for the opposition.
     
  7. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Rafael Van Der Vaart

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    Experience. He is 28 (29?), played a lot of games, and too his credit the occasion doesnt seem to phase him.

    Which means he can be relied upon to give what he has consistently.

    Skipp, as explained, is a child. You know very well dropping him into 40 games of the season right off the bat could be immensely damaging to him. Poch wont do that.

    Wanyama and Dembele are much, much better FOOTBALLERS than Sissoko. Id argue he is probably the better athlete. But you know very well which will miss out if all are fit.

    Its because being a FOOTBALLER is more key than ATHLETE. And, as I said - and you also point to - being an athlete isnt a defining trait to set someone apart in this team. They all are. So whats the explanation for Sissoko not playing ahead of them? Well its pretty phucking obvious....

    Just take a second and think. Youve reduced the discussion to defending Sissokos selection because he is ahead of an 18 year old academy product that has literally minutes of first team football under his belt. Let that sink in.
     
    scaramanga likes this.
  8. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Rafael Van Der Vaart

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    EDIT: And I should say, Ive not particular opinion on Skipp at this point. He has seen so little football, and is so clearly yet to really break through, I cant even decide what sort of player he is.

    If I were to describe him it would simply be "tidy". Seems to have good technique, passes and moves well, but otherwise I dont know that he is especially good defensively/offensively etc because I simply havent seen more than the absolute minimum of him.

    So I have to say, from my point of view at least, its an incredibly weak argument to try and justify Sissokos involvement at Skipps expense as proof of some greater worth.
     
  9. the dza

    the dza Johnny Morrison

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    No sh1t, but Sissoko is also a footballer as well as an athlete. His athleticism, his defining trait, is useful to our team as it covers weaknesses in other players like Winks and Trippier. Poch picks him because of it.

    I've reduced the discussion to explaining to you why Sissoko's athleticism gets him picked, as you seem to find it very confusing. But that's because you have convinced yourself that Sissoko is a much worse footballer than he actually is. He's playing well this season.

    I am done with this now, or you'll just keep posting the same sh1t over and over like a phucking moron.
     
  10. harr1984

    harr1984 Paul Stalteri

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    Sissoko played 25 League games in his first season, 33 last season and 19/25 so far this season - so you certainly cant decide who he plays ahead of as its quite clear Poch likes to play him. If you think that for three seasons hes been a regular for us simply because of injuries then I must question your judgement on this subject. I dont envisage any coach at our level playing a guy consistently for three straight seasons who apparently isnt a footballer just because of injuries,he would have been out and replaced a long time ago - sorry but that just doesn't wash:D....
     
  11. scaramanga

    scaramanga David Ginola Staff Member

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    You're absolutely right, he is the best defensive midfielder at the club. When was the last time we regularly played a defensive midfielder rather than a pair of all-rounders? It's a long time ago, anyway.

    Pep doesn't play a defensive midfielder, Klopp doesn't, Sarri doesn't, etc. Mourinho does, and Leicesterball does but I don't think we'll be changing to that style any time soon.
     
  12. the dza

    the dza Johnny Morrison

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    I would say Dier plays as a defensive midfielder for us. Wanyama if selected tends to, but when paired with Dier in the past then Wanyama was the one who got forward, with Dier holding. They actually looked very good in a pair the last couple of times they played together when Wanyama was fully fit.

    Pep plays Fernandinho as their defensive midfielder and they don't look as good when he doesn't play, imo. Klopp has bought Fabinho in this season to play as their defensive midfielder in a shift to 4231 for many of their games this season (part of their more conservative approach overall). Took a couple of months to integrate him, but now when he's fit, he seems to play more often than not.
     
  13. scaramanga

    scaramanga David Ginola Staff Member

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    One of the primary reasons 4-2-3-1 exists is to avoid needing a pure defensive midfielder. The 2 is a pairing where both can pass, both can defend. Sissoko and Wanyama are not suited to that, Dembele was and Winks/Dier are.
     
  14. Roland Beurre

    Roland Beurre Espen Baardsen

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    Well, except in a World Cup knock-out match, obviously. Not that I'd have remembered it had they (Brazil, was it?) not gone down the pitch and scored.
     
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  15. galeforce

    galeforce Garth Crooks

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    did he?

    ok, he never did it in a proper football match then
     
  16. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Rafael Van Der Vaart

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    Poch is making the best of a bad situation, its been clear from the beginning.

    Its not masterplan stuff where Sissoko is a key ingredient, its simply making do. And when we finally start making moves in the transfer market again I fully expect Sissoko to be replaced.

    The only thing I find confusing about Sissokos game is why people are so desperate to convinced themselves he is something he isnt.

    Ive have, many many times, recognised his positive traits. I know he puts a shift in, I know he covers the channel, I know he does his absolute best. I just dont value "being an athlete" above "being a footballer". The former of which he is excellent, the latter he is average at best.

    And for us, he simply isnt good enough.


    I dont understand what it is about a pretty pragmatic and fair view that makes me a "phucking" moron, but you are of course free to your opinions.



    Starts?

    Id have to check the stats etc, but I am pretty sure 90% of his appearances - starts at least - will have come because someone else was injured/unavailable/being nursed.

    I cant think of many times he has started and Ive thought "Why is he starting and not Dembele?".

    Id describe his time here are "utility" and not "first choice", and I think thats a fair reflection so far.
     
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  17. the dza

    the dza Johnny Morrison

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    I apologise, I was being a touchy tw@t. You're definitely not a moron, I enjoy sparring with you. And I agree that Poch has made-do with his midfield, was never the plan to rely so much on Winks and Sissoko. But you have to say that, we're 3rd in the league and we've won a lot of games -- and in those games, it's not been in spite of playing Sissoko, but in part because of him. Credit where it's due imo.
     
  18. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Rafael Van Der Vaart

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    I appreciate that, thanks.

    Sissoko has played a part, never said otherwise.

    The problem comes, as it always does on the internet, when the points get completely polarised.

    Fundamentally, for me, Sissoko simply isnt good enough. Not good enough technique, intelligence, awareness or decision making. And being really fit, fast and strong doesnt compensate for that, for me.

    He does a solid enough base job, but he doesnt do enough to really add to the side. I often find his lack of the above leads to stalling our forward play and shape in general.

    I say the above, someone (in the general, not specifically you) just ramps up the opposite side of the spectrum and shouts it down.

    It doesnt seem to matter how much I demonstrate that I do recognise and appreciate the positives he has, thats just how it goes.

    So yes. His pass completion rate is good, but the passes arent of value. His defensive work is good, sort of. I find he does some excellent defensive work, and yet when he plays there always seem to be massive gaps to exploit as well. He does those eye catching runs through midfield, great, except they dont actually achieve much. He makes bursting runs in support of the attack, which should be great, but he cant hit a cows ass with a banjo...

    And all criticism of him is relative to who and what we are.

    Were I a Brighton fan, and he was their player, Id probably be really supportive of him.
     
  19. the dza

    the dza Johnny Morrison

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    Before this season, I would have totally agreed. But I think he's done such a good job for us with others injured, he is well worth a place as a squad player. Wouldn't rely on him as a starter in a team that wants to compete for the league, but as a squad player I think he's more than done his job for us and could continue to do so. I think we could sign a midfielder as a starter, then have Dier/Winks/Sissoko/Skipp filling out the other spots (assuming Wanyama isn't going to be part of our plans anymore, though I'd be delighted if he could come back from the dead).
     
  20. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Rafael Van Der Vaart

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    I have to hold my hands up (again) and say he has improved this season beyond what I thought he was capable of.

    The improvement in him is impressive.

    Im unsure of how I feel about him as a squad player to be honest. I think in key areas he is fundamentally not at the right level, so whats the point? But I also think he seems willing to sit back and do his best when called upon which has its worth.

    Practically speaking Id expect him to survive the summer but be effectively relegated down the order as you say. Probably to move on in time as other players establish themselves.

    It looks like this summer is going to be turbulent squad wise, so unless we get a "to good to refuse" offer I figure he'll stick around.

    Ultimately though "squad player" will be his future if he sticks around, and a run of games like he is currently enjoying will only happen if the midfield gets similarly gutted by injury etc.


    Relativity seems to be the issue with how people judge him, IMO.

    Relative to him last season and before, this seasons Sissoko is absolutely brilliant.

    Relative to the level of quality we need, despite that improvement, he just isnt good enoguh IMO.
     
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