Daniel Levy - Chairman

[Bedfordspurs]

Has anyone calculated what the stadium revenue and profit are (relative to OWHL)? Would be interesting. Is circa £5m a home game in the right ballpark?

It’s at least treble the old ground
I did some sums before in Here and had the income around £120m a season from memory

 

[SpurMeUp]

It’s at least treble the old ground
I did some sums before in Here and had the income around £120m a season from memory

Then add in a couple of rugby games, a couple of Yank versions of rugby, a boxing contest, a couple of music events, plus a cup run...and £150m doesn't seem deluded. But is that cleared profit?

 

[Raziel]

Then add in a couple of rugby games, a couple of Yank versions of rugby, a boxing contest, a couple of music events, plus a cup run...and £150m doesn't seem deluded. But is that cleared profit?

It's all little steps, I'd say the goal is 3rd place revenue wise

- United and Pool are simply monsters

If our new stadium +additional gets us into 3rd revenue wise with no new foreseeable major expenses needed (our capital projects are done) it means concentrating on the team/DoF management (improvements there) should have us in the competition (where previously the revenue gap was so bad that even massive overachievement only got us to that 3rd place type result)

 

[SpurMeUp]

It's all little steps, I'd say the goal is 3rd place revenue wise

- United and Pool are simply monsters

If our new stadium +additional gets us into 3rd revenue wise with no new foreseeable major expenses needed (our capital projects are done) it means concentrating on the team/DoF management (improvements there) should have us in the competition (where previously the revenue gap was so bad that even massive overachievement only got us to that 3rd place type result)

And presumably where pool and united are so strong is not stadium revenue but sponsorship and international recognition. Which brings us back to the doubter's point - we need to spend to enhance the footballing side of Spurs. So Levy's goals should align with fans desires in the coming decade. How he makes us into a great playing side that wins things is the interesting question. Fans seem to put all of the emphasis onto one thing - a DOF - like one person is going to switch up onfield success overnight. These things are whole organisation targets. They run from the kit man, through the coaching team, to the Chairman. Levy does need to take stock and issue a fresh 5 year plan post covid.

It would be nice to see Spurs invest in and develop a coaching culture a la Germany or Ajax. Levy has started this, but we need to invest into it more and solidify something. It could allow Spurs to not be so dependent on one football manager with a whole coaching team and culture behind the scenes to back up the manager of the day and create a stable setup that doesn't get remodeled for each new manager.

 

[spurs' magna carter]

It's all little steps, I'd say the goal is 3rd place revenue wise

- United and Pool are simply monsters

If our new stadium +additional gets us into 3rd revenue wise with no new foreseeable major expenses needed (our capital projects are done) it means concentrating on the team/DoF management (improvements there) should have us in the competition (where previously the revenue gap was so bad that even massive overachievement only got us to that 3rd place type result)

And presumably where pool and united are so strong is not stadium revenue but sponsorship and international recognition. Which brings us back to the doubter's point - we need to spend to enhance the footballing side of Spurs. So Levy's goals should align with fans desires in the coming decade. How he makes us into a great playing side that wins things is the interesting question. Fans seem to put all of the emphasis onto one thing - a DOF - like one person is going to switch up onfield success overnight. These things are whole organisation targets. They run from the kit man, through the coaching team, to the Chairman. Levy does need to take stock and issue a fresh 5 year plan post covid.

It would be nice to see Spurs invest in and develop a coaching culture a la Germany or Ajax. Levy has started this, but we need to invest into it more and solidify something. It could allow Spurs to not be so dependent on one football manager with a whole coaching team and culture behind the scenes to back up the manager of the day and create a stable setup that doesn't get remodeled for each new manager.

Very good post. There's no magic bullet to our problems, Poch pointed them out and then Levy approached them like Mr. Bean did when he sneezed on a painting in the film. It has gone from bad to worse. Also, we've had the DoF system previously (Arnesen/Comollo between 2004-2009 and watered down version ala Technical Director in Baldini between 2012-2015) only for Levy to slam dunk them in the bin and see the club reach the Champions League promise land. All before Levy would get heavily involved again and things go pear shaped. Stadium or no stadium, there were opportunities missed when it came to player acquisitions.

Without exaggerating I have serious concerns about us on the pitch, I crave those trophies so badly. But when looking at our bouts of relegation form in the past two years, I am looking above the table thinking how can we can get back there whilst being fully aware that there could be a stagnation or even a slide down the table ahead of us.

The re-build starts now and should have realistic goals, like 2004/05, cannot be thinking top 4 next season especially if Kane and or Son goes. Yes Levy needs to step aside from the footballing side of things, not trying to squeeze the lemon too hard and no more deadline day master class attempts unless unforeseen circumstances happen or opportunity arises - think Man Utd with Rooney in 2004 and not just rare bargains like VdV. But there is far more than just that needed. We have had the best squad in decades only for it all to be for nothing - FA Cup S/F loses, oh so nearly league title attempts and, worst of all, 3 cup finals and not even a goal scored, Jesus wept. How can use youth to our advantage, as we have, and add to it to push us over the line which we've fallen at pretty much every single time?

Levy is the infrastructure and economics king but even that crown can fall off his head if on the pitch issues continue - on the pitch success is where it's at, look at Leicester and Liverpool. Sponsors, offering huge deals, want winners and or the largest fanbases, not oh so nearlys like us.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

It's all little steps, I'd say the goal is 3rd place revenue wise

- United and Pool are simply monsters

If our new stadium +additional gets us into 3rd revenue wise with no new foreseeable major expenses needed (our capital projects are done) it means concentrating on the team/DoF management (improvements there) should have us in the competition (where previously the revenue gap was so bad that even massive overachievement only got us to that 3rd place type result)

That's why it is so annoying having the two doped teams, with Pool and United it makes a group of four, so we can make it 5 in a league with 4 CL places. If we were doing this in Germany or Spain (like A.Madrid or Dortmund) CL qualification would be nailed on.

 

[Raziel]

And presumably where pool and united are so strong is not stadium revenue but sponsorship and international recognition. Which brings us back to the doubter's point - we need to spend to enhance the footballing side of Spurs. So Levy's goals should align with fans desires in the coming decade. How he makes us into a great playing side that wins things is the interesting question. Fans seem to put all of the emphasis onto one thing - a DOF - like one person is going to switch up onfield success overnight. These things are whole organisation targets. They run from the kit man, through the coaching team, to the Chairman. Levy does need to take stock and issue a fresh 5 year plan post covid.

It would be nice to see Spurs invest in and develop a coaching culture a la Germany or Ajax. Levy has started this, but we need to invest into it more and solidify something. It could allow Spurs to not be so dependent on one football manager with a whole coaching team and culture behind the scenes to back up the manager of the day and create a stable setup that doesn't get remodeled for each new manager.

Yep, United and Pool is international brand monetization (and of course United are endorsement fluffy bunnies cuddlings, they have the "official fudging whatever of United" for everything you can imagine and then some).

the issue with the Ajax model is two things
- It's a selling model, the reason youth players get chances is the senior players are sold
- To do it, you eliminate the possibility of certain coaches (as the club plays a certain way, so can't take on different style coach)

 

[Finney Is Back]

@Jurg it does look like Enic have enhanced what we can spend as a club. Seeing the many failures of owners who have 'gambled' and borrowed or put in their own money - it doesn't work out that well a lot of the time. Villa under Learner, Risdale + Leeds are classic examples but there are many, Valencia etc. Would you want to throw the dice with Spurs and potentially jeopardise our success, when we currently have a stable and sustainable path?

There are few people that can 1. spend 2b to buy Spurs and 2. have another 1b or more they'd pump into the club 3. who can circumventing the fair play financial rules of the day 4. who like football and 5. are fans of Spurs. Is there anyone who meets these criteria you can think of? Say you were all of these things - one can dream - could you justify spending 3b on a game? When there are so many other deserving things in this world that could use the resources? So, in the real world then, it is unlikely we would get new owners who don't wish to make a profit and wish to spunk billions into Spurs.

Didn't Valencia's troubles actually start with a very over budget stadium build?!? (should we be worried as the story of the two clubs could be considered to be quite similar?)

 

[Finney Is Back]

Spurs turnover is over 450M (without full stadium kick in), debt is to everyone's best guess somewhere in the ~1B range, the vast majority being long term, low interest. So not even 3X.

Now is actually the best time in history to take loans.

People can pot shot Levy for many things with some justification, but lets be clear, he never fudges up when it comes to money .. (fudging guy made a profit on buying/selling the cranes we used to build stadium)

Spurs turnover was only that high when we went all the way to the CL final. I think it was £390M the following season still with CL money but also with some income removed from behind closed door games. Additional CL revenue probably cancels out the 5 games not played at the stadium.

Our gross debt (including interest payable) is £1.17 billion according to most recent report on SwissRamble (he tends to get his financials right).

Remember also that that is 3 x turnover.... and probably something like 12 x EBITDA.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Not sure we have full season numbers, what I did see

- It's generally accepted that United is about £5M per match day
- There was some data showing that for a few months of running at capacity we had highest matchday revenue in league (so higher than United)

Man Utd's stadium revenue is typically around £110m annually.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Who knows if the levels of fan spending would sustain as the stadium became less novel. People might get in and out quicker, but I don't think so. The club can invest in enhancing areas all around the concourse - making more comfortable pre and post-match spaces. There is also more that can be done to streamline service in the 30mins before games and during HT. Plus all the corporate areas. Provided Levy reinvests into the facilities the stadium should give the club around £5m more than OWHL a game. So an extra 100m a year is relatively conservative. Other events, cup runs extra...

I think our match day revenue at WHL was around £40m per year. Should be able to get the equivalent at our new stadium by looking at the 2019 accounts and factoring in the fact that 5 games were affected by covid (though we do have to also factor in CL games that season vs none next season (as is very likely to be the case).

 

[BrainOfLevy]

It appears that you have convinced yourself that our current owners are incapable of delivering 'act 2' ?

I think the burden of losing, or at least, not winning is so great that you have abandoned one of your admirable principles and also your ability to be fair?

If the last 3 year's had been smooth off the pitch, then we would be approaching the stage of scratching our heads and wondering if we are moving forward with these owners. I'd say they deserve at least 5 years (probably from now) to see if they can deliver 'act 2', they simply deserve that from the delivery of 'act 1'. That is fair, is it not?.

Wanting 'to do things the right way' is a principal of mine, not just with THFC, but applied to my daily life.
So apologies in advance,if you were just applying it to THFC and the way the club is run, but if what I describe is you as a person as well, I'd worry that a lack of a shiny pot (as let's face it, that's all that's lacking) has had such a deep effect.

As for new owners, the only option, due to the state football has got itself into, is a sugar daddy. If you want a new owner to pump £200m+ in for team development but still looks at it as an investment that will eventually give him a return, then no-one of that type will look at football and think the risk/reward ratio of football is worth it. (Especially compared to other investments).

I’m sorry to bring it back to Poch, but part of what is fair and how I viewed how Levy acted there effects my thinking here. What I am saying is that I think they might not be the best people to take us to the next level, and I think it’s a take they would understand given they let a Manager go because they stopped believing in his ability to get results from the squad. It wasn’t fair. He turned down Madrid. He overachieved massively with us. But when it came to it, they let him go. Which is why as much as I can understand that ENIC ‘deserve’ to be given some space to see how we do with a new stadium, clearly they are ruthless. Clearly they are willing to make a decision that suits them. And when I want to win more quickly, I’m willing to say that now we have the stadium, let’s go for it ourselves.

So it’s part pragmatism, part ruthlessness, part frustration with the lack of success after coming so close and annoyance with the last couple of years. I think in my personal life I still want to do things the right way, but with Spurs, I see no reason to put us through another 5 years of this, in the hypothetical situation that a new owner could short circuit it. I’m willing to take a risk, as I think the stadium gives us that opportunity. M

If it is what you describe as a sugar daddy...fine. If it was a tech billionaire fronting a consortium and we got some former players and fan representation at the top of the club, would it be so bad?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Didn't Valencia's troubles actually start with a very over budget stadium build?!? (should we be worried as the story of the two clubs could be considered to be quite similar?)

Yes just shows how poorly run clubs can fair. Thankfully no such trauma with Levy around. And unlike the current Valencia owner Levy hasn’t pumped in his own money. Their fans still want the owner out. You’d still take an owner like Valencia’s who will put money in over our stable setup?

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think our match day revenue at WHL was around £40m per year. Should be able to get the equivalent at our new stadium by looking at the 2019 accounts and factoring in the fact that 5 games were affected by covid (though we do have to also factor in CL games that season vs none next season (as is very likely to be the case).

Possible that we match a years OWHL revenue in just 8 games in the current stadium. That’s a big uplift.

I guess part of the reason EL qualification got more attractive is the stadium revenue from the extra games. Must be a guaranteed 4 extra hone games minimum?


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[Finney Is Back]

Yes just shows how poorly run clubs can fair. Thankfully no such trauma with Levy around. And unlike the current Valencia owner Levy hasn’t pumped in his own money. Their fans still want the owner out. But you’d take an owner like Valencia’s who will put money in over our stable setup?


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I'm not sure what Valencia's debt position looked like in comparison to their turnover and EBITDA when things went awry for them? Though didn't they also overachieve with a manager (Benitez in their case) only to then struggle after he left the club?

A worry I have regarding Spurs is that reduced performances and level of competition played in is likely to reduce the demand for tickets. Interestingly I've had 3 separate phone calls from Spurs in the last two weeks with them trying to sell me corporate offerings. On each occasion I have told them to come back to me after we've got a new manager and I've seen how much we spend on players in the transfer window. It is much easier selling corporate experiences for top dollar when the club is competing in the CL and at the top end of the PL.

If we take our record turnover from 2019 and then remove income from European competition completely then where does that leave us financially? More pertinently, where does it leave us financially when we still have a painful rebuild to go through?

 

[Gazza]

Yes just shows how poorly run clubs can fair. Thankfully no such trauma with Levy around. And unlike the current Valencia owner Levy hasn’t pumped in his own money. Their fans still want the owner out. You’d still take an owner like Valencia’s who will put money in over our stable setup?

Its not a case of one or the other ...

 

[Finney Is Back]

Possible that we match a years OWHL revenue in just 8 games in the current stadium. That’s a big uplift.

I guess part of the reason EL qualification got more attractive is the stadium revenue from the extra games. Must be a guaranteed 4 extra hone games minimum?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Indeed, though UEFA games are priced significantly lower than the CL games. My 'guess' is that we make around £4.5m per PL game versus £1.5m per PL game at WHL. CL games would be same sort of numbers. Europa games maybe £2m at best?

 

[Jurgen the German]

@Jurg it does look like Enic have enhanced what we can spend as a club. Seeing the many failures of owners who have 'gambled' and borrowed or put in their own money - it doesn't work out that well a lot of the time. Villa under Learner, Risdale + Leeds are classic examples but there are many, Valencia etc. Would you want to throw the dice with Spurs and potentially jeopardise our success, when we currently have a stable and sustainable path?

There are few people that can 1. spend 2b to buy Spurs and 2. have another 1b or more they'd pump into the club 3. who can circumventing the fair play financial rules of the day 4. who like football and 5. are fans of Spurs. Is there anyone who meets these criteria you can think of? Say you were all of these things - one can dream - could you justify spending 3b on a game? When there are so many other deserving things in this world that could use the resources? So, in the real world then, it is unlikely we would get new owners who don't wish to make a profit and wish to spunk billions into Spurs.

Not sure if you saw the poll Finney posted a few weeks ago about ENIC? There were four or five options, stick with the same setup with no change, new ownership, same setup but Levy cedes control of the football operations and I can’t recall the other option. I went for the last one. Believe it or not, I’d prefer the current ownership stay but give up running the football side of things, increase the wages to turnover ratio so that it is not one of the lowest in the league and implement changes to the transfer policy. Be more proactive in the market, take a hit every now and then on the deadwood instead of having them hanging around and collecting wages which cost us millions anyway.

As for the criteria, I have no idea who fits your criteria. Forbes estimated there are over 2,000 billionaires in the world so I dare say there has to be at least one credible, ethical billionaire who might want to take a punt on us. Had anyone honestly heard of Joe Lewis or Daniel Levy before they bought spurs?

When people say “be careful what you wish for, better the devil you know”. I agree and we are in safe hands in ENIC. But what some fail to acknowledge is that we could potentially be better with new ownership at the helm. It’s not a guarantee, far from it. But it’s not out of the question either.

 

[90291Spur]

Not sure if you saw the poll Finney posted a few weeks ago about ENIC? There were four or five options, stick with the same setup with no change, new ownership, same setup but Levy cedes control of the football operations and I can’t recall the other option. I went for the last one. Believe it or not, I’d prefer the current ownership stay but give up running the football side of things, increase the wages to turnover ratio so that it is not one of the lowest in the league and implement changes to the transfer policy. Be more proactive in the market, take a hit every now and then on the deadwood instead of having them hanging around and collecting wages which cost us millions anyway.

As for the criteria, I have no idea who fits your criteria. Forbes estimated there are over 2,000 billionaires in the world so I dare say there has to be at least one credible, ethical billionaire who might want to take a punt on us. Had anyone honestly heard of Joe Lewis or Daniel Levy before they bought spurs?

When people say “be careful what you wish for, better the devil you know”. I agree and we are in safe hands in ENIC. But what some fail to acknowledge is that we could potentially be better with new ownership at the helm. It’s not a guarantee, far from it. But it’s not out of the question either.

I think there is more chance of finding a rich unicorn who grew up watching the Double Team who has saved up enough magic beans to bank roll the club.

https://collegian.csufresno.edu/2020/03/theres-no-such-thing-as-an-ethical-billionaire/#.YJnOKS2z2CM

https://medium.com/to-the-pxint/there-is-no-such-thing-as-an-ethical-billionaire-4dd2a6296e2e

https://thesciencesurvey.com/editorial/2020/04/14/does-ethical-billionairism-exist/

https://www.tatler.com/article/is-there-such-thing-as-an-ethical-billionaire

 

[SpurMeUp]

Not sure if you saw the poll Finney posted a few weeks ago about ENIC? There were four or five options, stick with the same setup with no change, new ownership, same setup but Levy cedes control of the football operations and I can’t recall the other option. I went for the last one. Believe it or not, I’d prefer the current ownership stay but give up running the football side of things, increase the wages to turnover ratio so that it is not one of the lowest in the league and implement changes to the transfer policy. Be more proactive in the market, take a hit every now and then on the deadwood instead of having them hanging around and collecting wages which cost us millions anyway.

As for the criteria, I have no idea who fits your criteria. Forbes estimated there are over 2,000 billionaires in the world so I dare say there has to be at least one credible, ethical billionaire who might want to take a punt on us. Had anyone honestly heard of Joe Lewis or Daniel Levy before they bought spurs?

When people say “be careful what you wish for, better the devil you know”. I agree and we are in safe hands in ENIC. But what some fail to acknowledge is that we could potentially be better with new ownership at the helm. It’s not a guarantee, far from it. But it’s not out of the question either.

Approximately three quarters of these 2000 billionaires are American or Chinese. Would you be happy with a US or Chinese owner?

Obviously having 2b is probably not sufficient. Anyone with less than 5b to their name (cheapos) is unlikely to frivolously spend half their money on a play thing. So the pool of billionaires is probably smaller still.

There are only a handful of English individuals who could fit your criteria. Jim Ratcliffe is the only one I know of who fits the bill. But I’m not sure a savvy business man would spend the amounts needed knowing the money will never come back. To really spunk away billions, having 10b is maybe not enough unless you’re a Spurs fan. Therefore, a consortium, an investment group, a national wealth fund, Saudis or other oiled vehicles are far more likely than the ‘ethical billionaire’.


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