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**** Chelsea v Tottenham Hotspur ****

Discussion in 'Spurs News & Views' started by markysimmo, 22 Jan 2022.

  1. harr1984

    harr1984 Pedro Mendes

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    He is a top coach, anyone can/should be able to see this. But like you say he isn’t beyond criticism and injuries or no injuries there are certain things he got wrong, but he is only a couple of months into the job - he is still learning about the team.

    I do think some of our fans need this reality check though. Pre match there were various people on this thread expecting us to get at least a draw or win. Based on what exactly? We had played Chelsea three times and been outclassed EVERY time. We have not beaten a team under Conte higher than tenth. Yet there has consistently been this talk of catching Chelsea, seriously? We are only in the hunt for fourth because the Goons and Man U are relatively poor - not because we are particularly good. We have a long way to go, and if Conte is here to oversee it for a decent period of time we can get back to competing at the top. However that is a big if, very dependant on the backing that can be provided…..
     
  2. billyiddo

    billyiddo Garth Crooks Staff Member

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    That sounds like a top 6 squad to me

    Some above, some below, most in the middle.

    I don't know who you think is carrying the team to a top 4 position this season seeings as Kane & Son have hardly turned up for the most part
     
    glasgowspur and Bedfordspurs like this.
  3. DubaiSpur

    DubaiSpur Paul Walsh

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    Nope. I'd argue maybe a fifth of the squad is top six quality (Kane, Son, Reguilon, Lloris, Lucas maybe), a fifth mid-table (Hojbjerg, Bergwijn, Dier, Davies, Skipp) , two-fifths lower mid-table or worse (Lo Celso, Ndombele, Winks, Sanchez, Doherty, Sessegnon, Alli, Rodon, Gollini, Tanganga) and the jury's out on the final few (Gil, Romero, Royal).

    The center of weight of that bunch is mid to lower mid-table, imo.
     
  4. DeanoAustin

    DeanoAustin John Lacy

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    Agree wholeheartedly. The "he's x Premier League games without defeat" really annoyed me as it was being held up as some sort of evidence that he was on the road to being our greatest manager of all time. He's had a relatively easy time of it since he came in fixture wise - primarily home fixtures against mid table teams. The League Cup games and, to a lesser extent, the Mura game were evidence that yesterday was just a matter of time. That's not a criticism of Conte, he's been brilliant. More a comment on how silly some of the expectations were.

    We're close to the top 4 - that's a hell of an achievement compared to where we were in October. But we've a long way to go and Conte, on his own, can only do so much. He gets this lot into the CL, that's the absolute maximum he can get out of this group and it'd go down as an unbelievable achievement. To achieve any more than that, he needs help and a lot of it.

    We were only 30 seconds away from 2 defeats on the bounce which would have us all feeling a lot worse today than we do. We're much closer to the likes of Villa, Wolves, United, Woolwich than we are to the top 3.
     
    SteveAWOL, parklane1, GPRD81 and 3 others like this.
  5. Bedfordspurs

    Bedfordspurs Jack L. Jones

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    Sounds sensible to me

    what we do have in this league are 4 squads (not first teams) that have and mega money put into them higher than any clubs in the world apart from PsG. 3 of those have either won the league or champions league (and been in finals) in very very recent years and invested in top of that

    we also have United who have spent money but appear to have no structure in their set up to benefit from that

    what happens so sometimes you play a side and a player with quality does something brilliant (their first goal yesterday) which justifies their mega money fee and wages and it unpicks the work done by the coach and the players. it’s football and it happens

    what we have to aim for this year is to be the best of the rest as the league has divided up like that. That’s still very viable and in our own hands too (we know what that normally means)
     
    ricky2tricky4city likes this.
  6. billyiddo

    billyiddo Garth Crooks Staff Member

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    See my edit, your opinion on the squads level does not stack up with where we are without our top players dragging us up a level or two this season. You have lost the run of yourself on this topic and arent looking at things objectively because you're so invested in the clubs management being the root of all evil.
     
  7. Bedfordspurs

    Bedfordspurs Jack L. Jones

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    Your staying the obvious there
    We’re closer to the teams that haven’t spent £100s of millions
    No one could argue with that
     
    billyiddo likes this.
  8. DubaiSpur

    DubaiSpur Paul Walsh

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    I think the opposite. Nuno showed where this squad is at - its true level, effectively without any management intervention. Utterly mid-table.

    The only man dragging things higher than they would be is Conte, and he is fighting this squad's massive deficiencies to do so.

    Poch did the same, manfully so, for years despite receiving no backing. Great managers can do that - turn sow's ears into silk purses.

    But it says nothing about the ability of the squad. On that, Conte has been constantly and loudly saying for months that this lot are hopeless - I'd suggest your commitment to defending the way we're run is taking you off track from seeing that, because the evidence is there in every single press conference he gives.
     
    Bishop likes this.
  9. DeanoAustin

    DeanoAustin John Lacy

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    As @harr1984 said earlier, there was talk on here of catching Chelsea last week.
     
  10. billyiddo

    billyiddo Garth Crooks Staff Member

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    And now we're back to my original post re Conte not being a miracle worker - it might suit your argument to believe a manager can turn water in to wine in a matter of weeks but occams razor suggests its that the players were under trained and under coached and not playing for a manager that looked like he didn't want to be here from the first day. Combined with 18 months of Jose-ball it's no wonder there has been a sharp turn around now that the basics are in place.
     
  11. glasgowspur

    glasgowspur Les Ferdinand

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    The quality of city, Liverpool and Chelsea is way above everyone else and skews the perspective.
    Their sustained spending means they are not a proper comparison for not just us but most of the league.
    We are as good as most others, certainly no worse than utd, arsenal or Leicester, most of whom have all spent more than we have.
    If we really want to be challenging for not just top four but trophies we need to spend, but spend wisely. There are no oil or gas wells under NWHL.
    Some fans of Tottenham, Everton, arsenal and Leicester need to realise we can't keep up with the top three clubs when it comes to spending.
     
  12. billyiddo

    billyiddo Garth Crooks Staff Member

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    You don't need to be as good as Chelsea to catch them, you don't play them every week- we're potentially right up with them if our games in hand work in our favour - get Son & Kane firing during the 2nd half of the season and why not?
     
  13. glasgowspur

    glasgowspur Les Ferdinand

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    Now they've had their two easy games against us i think we can gey close to them.
    Not because we are better but because they are dropping.
     
    Bedfordspurs likes this.
  14. Bedfordspurs

    Bedfordspurs Jack L. Jones

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    In the league it’s possible
    But that’s a reflection on them not us. They should be closer to city than us with the money they have spent backing the manager
     
  15. Bedfordspurs

    Bedfordspurs Jack L. Jones

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    So the manager doing his job makes a difference
    Again we’re back to stating the obvious
     
  16. NaijaSpurs

    NaijaSpurs Johnny Morrison

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    @DubaiSpur I would suggest neither Winks or Dier have dragged has dragged us down this season, and Dier in particular has been out best defender.
     
  17. Mikey10

    Mikey10 Simon Davies

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    You should move to China. You'd love it there.
     
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  18. Bedfordspurs

    Bedfordspurs Jack L. Jones

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    Agreed
    You progress by beating all the teams you should
     
  19. ricky2tricky4city

    ricky2tricky4city Rafael Van Der Vaart

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    The irony ....he's responding to the melodrama. Get it?
     
  20. DubaiSpur

    DubaiSpur Paul Walsh

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    This is the problem. Neither Eric Dier nor Harry Winks have improved in any significant way from when they were benched for the imperious back four of Toby, Jan, Wanyama and Dembele.

    But we have regressed to the point where they have become our best players.

    This is the issue. We have allowed mediocre bench players to become key for us, and accepted mediocrity as the bar so when we come up against a genuinely talented side like Chelsea, they take us apart and look levels above us in technical ability, on-pitch intelligence and anticipation.

    In general, Dier has been...okay. He still makes about one big error every game, but he's been okay in a three. Winks has been..okay. But lightweight, makes some good passes now and then, gets caught out of position a lot, but okay.

    I myself given both credit for good performances now and then, but the wider viewpoint is that there was a time not so long ago when these performances were par for the course - when Toby and Jan ran every game with effortless ease, when Dembele and Wanyama destroyed all and sundry.

    Accepting that Dier and Winks are in the team despite their game having stayed the same from 2016 to now is accepting that we won't return to that former level of play with Toby, Jan, Wanyama and Dembele, players better than them.

    That, imo, is one of the single biggest reasons we are where we are. We have let Sanchez, Dier, Davies and Winks bring expectations down to their level.

    That needs to change.
     

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