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Bale. Could we? Would we? Should we?

Discussion in 'Transfer Rumours' started by Mulletperm, 17 Apr 2017.

  1. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Tom Huddlestone

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    Quick google search suggests Robben & Ribery wages is around €19m, so would basically cover Bales.

    That said, whether they would be happy pouring all that cash into someone only available half the time is a different story...
     
  2. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Simon Davies

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    I disagree here. the issue is very much paying him. Bale is currently on over £30 million a season at Real Madrid, with 3 years left on that contract. Bale stands to earn approx. £100 million from Real Madrid over the next 3 years. Real Madrid giving Bale a free transfer doesn’t solve the fact that there won’t be another club out there who will be prepared to give him anything like that sort of money.

    Something to remember here is that when player 'wages' are talked about the combined package (minus performance bonuses) are usually quoted. The package will include the standard 'wage' plus the signing on fee (that is typically spread over the length of the contract and paid quarterly). A £250k a week deal from Spurs (I would imagine absolutely the most we could offer at present) would probably be structured as between £150k and £200k a week of "wages" and the equivalent of another £50k to £100k a week of signing on fee payments (paid quarterly).

    Even if we stretched ourselves to that £250k a week for Bale that still leaves him out of pocket by over £50 million over the 3 seasons. Therefore the most plausible way of Bale leaving Real Madrid is if Madrid give him a free transfer AND pay up 40% to 50% of his contract. Would Madrid really be prepared to give Bale £40 to £50 million quid to leave?

    There are only two other scenarios under which I see Bale leaving Madrid:

    1. A season long loan to a club that he is prepared to join (perhaps us?). Where the hiring club pay no loan fee and contribute about a third to a half of his wages. Real Madrid then hope that he has a good season that will lead to a club being prepared to take the player off of them at the end of the loan and pay a bigger financial contribution.

    2. A loan swap. I can see a scenario where Man Utd and Real Madrid swap Alexis Sanchez and Bale with the two clubs continuing to pick up their own player’s wage. The two clubs might even do a multi-year loan for this. I could see a deal like this being palatable for both clubs and probably also for the two players.

    Of course with the typical manager merry go round at Real Madrid, it may even suit them to only loan Bale out for a single season as it’s likely they’ll have at least two new managers during the remainder of Bale’s contract.

    My money would be on my option 2 above taking place however as I think both clubs and both players would welcome that scenario.
     
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  3. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Tom Huddlestone

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    What would Bale be worth, assuming wages no issue, on the market?

    Would £60m represent good value? A bargain? Over paying?

    Id suggest most would see it as good value, if not an outright bargain.

    And were we to buy him at that, on a 3 year deal, we would amortise that expense at £20m a season.

    Now look at that as Bale is FREE. But his sign on bonus is £20m a season, and he sits within our wage structure.

    Is it really that unthinkable?

    Thats before we offer him a big chunk of his image rights or something like that to compensate.

    I am personally not in favour of the deal, I dont think he is a player we need and I do think he comes with too much baggage to be worth it.

    But.... I absolutely think we could do the deal financially.
     
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  4. Gutter Boy

    Gutter Boy Tim Sherwood

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    Until Kane, Lloris, Eriksen, Verts and Alli demand salary parity
     
  5. parklane1

    parklane1 Andy Thompson

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    This, Bale is not the player he was ( to many injurys) and the likes of those you mentioned would be more entitled to the money that Bale would want.
     
  6. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Tom Huddlestone

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    As I have consistently said, Im not really in favour of it.

    However, players signed on a free get the perks of a big contract. Has always been, as will always be.

    I dont see players able to demand parity really. They dont now, do they? We dont hear of complaints in other teams because a free transfer got a chunky contract...
     
  7. MKSpur

    MKSpur Sergei Rebrov

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    I think players only demand parity if they have massive egos or the top earner isn’t anywhere near the best player / biggest contributor. So if Kane is our top earner, not sure anyone can really challenge it, Sanchez and Oxil however can only create unrest.

    The other option Madrid have is to call Bales bluff until January and see if he is willing to end his career to pick up the cash. I do get the impression he isn’t particularly bothered which might be why he would be better suited to United as opposed to a setup like ours which asks the players to do things like try their hardest for the team (he always did for us and seemingly for Wales imo, I just feel he’s put his wages entitlement at Madrid above any future sporting ambitions.
     
  8. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Tom Huddlestone

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    At the end of the day he has been playing at the biggest club on the planet and won everything. Including key contributions in multiple CL finals.

    He might well feel he is done. The only way is down...

    His comments about golf could well be a negotiating point, if he gives the appearance he is happy to sit on his contract it puts pressure on Madrid to make it worth his while.

    Though they could well just be true. He doesnt need the money, and theres nothing left to win, so why not just live in the sun instead of - as you say - getting involved in a club trying to get up to where he already is.
     
  9. MKSpur

    MKSpur Sergei Rebrov

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    It’s an odd one, anywhere else he’d have be worshipped for what he’s done in cup finals for them alone. He just doesn’t seem like he’s integrated to the team at all, but doesn’t want to leave without being paid off. It’s a loveless marriage but if he stays too long he’ll be past his sell by date for the next one!
     
  10. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Tom Huddlestone

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    After the way he has been treated I can completely understand him wanting to fudge them over.

    Equally I can also understand him just being "done". He has achieved everything he could have wanted.

    He is such a quiet character its impossible to say whether or not he has the drive to just want to play, or if he is ready to just move on to the next phase of life.
     
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  11. Raziel

    Raziel Steve Carr

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    I think he wants to play, but I also think to your point he feels done over and is not going to let Madrid get off lightly. It is going to cost Madrid to move him
     
  12. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Simon Davies

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    It looks like you have ignored most of my post above. You cannot determine the value of any player without considering their wage demands. Tottenham (akin to all non Sugar Daddy funded clubs) always look at the overall package when signing a player (cost of transfer + cost of wages over length of contract).

    Also it doesn't matter whether you pay a player via their standard wage or via a signing on bonus, it is effectively exactly the same source of funds (although typically clubs prefer to structure the deal in favour of the signing on fee and the player in favour of the standard wage – due to the what may happen later in event of a transfer out).

    It would appear that our current wage structure has a ceiling of about £200,000 a week for Harry Kane. That £200,000 a week will be covering both Kane’s wage and the instalments on his signing on fee or ‘loyalty bonus’ as it is often referred. I don't know for sure on the split on Kane's contract but previous experience would suggest this is likely to be split somewhere in the region of 75% wages and 25% signing on bonus). Paying Bale £200,000 a week AND a £20 million a season sign on bonus is to all intents and purposes exactly the same as paying him about £600,000 a week.

    To look at the complete farce of paying Bale £600,000 a week you only have to look at his situation at Real Madrid who are currently paying him that much money and likely to find it impossible to get rid of him unless they heavily subsidise the deal. If you consider that then it tells you that Bale's transfer value (taking his wage into account) is actually a maximum of £0 (and probably quite a lot less).

    I guess the ultimate question is whether Bale is worth £90 million over three years? I would argue that a 30 year old player with a slightly iffy injury record, who’s game is heavily influenced by pace and power, with a transfer value of <= £0 for the duration of the contract isn’t worth a £90 million outlay over three years. Remember also that we’re talking about 25% of our entire wage budget here.

    Interestingly enough though I would argue that Bale on loan for just a single season for a total outlay of about £15 or £20 million might be something worthwhile. That way we wouldn’t have to worry about his likely gradual decline now he is past 30. However I don’t see why Madrid would want to do that deal as they are still left with about £80 million of liability for Bale’s contract.

    The only way we get Bale is if Madrid give him to us for nothing and pay upwards of £50 million of his current contract on top of that (either directly to Bale as an exit payment or in terms of subsiding the wages on a loan deal). I think there are only two European clubs where that might not be the case - PSG and Man Utd, but I reckon even they would only be prepared to pay two thirds of Real Madrid's current commitment and probably not for the whole three years either.
     
    Last edited: 21 May 2019
  13. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Tom Huddlestone

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    I didnt ignore it. I just didnt agree, and posted why.

    You can get tangled up in what comes from what pot/is "wages"/is something else all you want, but the point remains simple.

    £60m fee + £200k pw wages is no different to £0 fee + £600k a week wages (or £200k wages and £400k "extra").

    I made the example to illustrate those that thought it wasnt financially achievable that it actually is. Because I doubt anyone would baulk at the first deal.

    As memory serves with Davids, as I originally cited, the whole point of the signing on bonus/stipend/call it what you will, was that it was NOT wages.

    He came in and accepted a wage in line with the rest of the squad (at a time when £70k was about our limit I think), and in addition to that he had a healthy signing on balance that was released over the course of his time here to effectively meet his wage demand (in excess of our limit).

    Its a very simple/basic point.

    That aside, I do completely agree with you.

    Bale for a season at £20m looks like good value.

    Bale for 3 seasons at £90m absolutely does not.

    The only question would be, despite offering value - would one season of Bale actually be worth it?
     
  14. Finney Is Back

    Finney Is Back Simon Davies

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    Actually the two things are different. If you sign a player for £60 million on a 3 year contract you count that player as an asset worth £60 million. You then increase your wage bill by £10 million a season (already more than the amount that we are allowed to increase under FFP rules in a season where we hadn't grown non PL TV contract money).

    However if we sign the same player on a free transfer then he has an asset value of zero. We then pay that single player £30 million a year in wages (way over the FFP increase allowance). The first deal is probably actually better from a financial perspective (providing the transfer fee is spread over the 3 year contract)

    Also I would baulk massively at the first deal. £60 million would be our record transfer fee by a big margin and we would be paying that for a player with little to no resale value, while also making him our joint highest paid player. We can give Harry Kane a £50 million 5 year package because at any point in the first three years of that contract we can sell him for well over £100 million. A £90 million 3 year package for Bale results in truly writing off £30 million a year for 3 years.

    Additionally you can say what you want but the reality is that wages and signing on bonuses are to all intents and purposes exactly the same thing. The only difference between them is that the remaining instalments of the signing on fee must be paid up by the club if they sell the player and the player has not put in an official transfer request. If the player puts in an official transfer request and was sold then the remaining instalments of the signing on fee are usually voided. Every single player that we sign (including players already here signing new deals) are given a package that is made up by a portion of wages and a portion of signing on fee. To have a budget of X for wages and a further unlimited budget for signing on fees makes no sense at all, both items combined make up the overall club 'wage bill'.

    The Davids transfer wage/signing on fee talk was probably just gonad*s talked on a message board by people who don’t understand how it really works. If £70k a week was our ‘wage limit at the time then that would’ve been for both wage and signing on fee combined - i.e we will pay a player a max of £3.5million a year. Davids coming in on on £70k wages and a £1.5 million a year signing on fee (or whatever both figures were) was actually just us putting our max wage up to £100k a week. That is all.

    My Dad did loads of deals over many years with many clubs for many players. Every single time the club would offer a package and my Dad would try to negotiate a higher overall package. The final part of the negotiation would always be the last adjustments on what portion was wage and what signing on bonus. For young players on the up my Dad would always try to get as big a portion as possible to the player 's wage with the club trying to keep as much as possible in the signing on fee. The clubs would do this as it protected them somewhat from players trying to force moves away. For players past their peak it would typically be the opposite as having a larger portion in the signing on bonus protects the player's interests in the event of the club trying to sell them on without them really wanting to go, where they are likely to be going for less money. Irrespective of the structure of the deal the player wage would always be leaked to the press as the overall amount (combined salary and signing on bonus). Every player and agent also uses this number as their salary figure when discussing deals.
     
    Last edited: 21 May 2019
  15. braineclipse

    braineclipse Andy Thompson

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    The situation Real find themselves in says something about the difference. A player that could potentially be valued at £60m that might end up costing them money to get rid of...
     
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  16. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Tom Huddlestone

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    If youre telling me its a non starter on Bale then Im happy with that.

    As I suspect you are to.

    I only ever remember that Davids example, and tidbits you see on contracts being made up on wages/rights/bonuses/signon fees etc, so cant claim to be an expert.

    If you know then fair enough, thanks for the effort in posting.
     
  17. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Tom Huddlestone

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    The Mirror

    Manchester United target Gareth Bale is more likely to end up at Liverpool or Tottenham than Old Trafford.

    That is the view of Spanish journalist Eduardo Inda, who says the possibility of a part-exchange for Christian Eriksen may swing the deal in Tottenham's favour.

    Bale joined Real Madrid from Tottenham for £90million in 2013 - but despite his starring role in Madrid's Champions League final win over Liverpool last season, he has dropped down the pecking order at the Bernabeu.

    The Wales star looks to be heading for the exit this summer after Madrid boss Zinedine Zidane kept him on the bench for their final game of the season.

    After the 2-0 defeat to Real Betis, Bale decided not to acknowledge the Madrid fans, and instead headed straight for the tunnel.

    Bale has long been linked with a move to United, but Inda sees him joining one of the protagonists of the June 1 Champions League final in Madrid.

    “Bale has spent the day playing golf at La Moraleja," said Inda, in quotes reported by the Daily Star .

    “And it is very likely that he will reach either of the two finalists in the Champions League, Tottenham or Liverpool.

    "That operation would be accompanied by Eriksen plus a quantity of money.”

    A move to Liverpool appears unlikely with the array of attacking talents Jurgen Klopp has at his disposal.

    He would be much more likely to nail down a starting place at United.

    Bale has been booed at times by Madrid fans this season, and former Real Madrid president Ramon Calderon said while this was unfair, the 29-year-old's failure to learn any Spanish has been a big factor in his Madrid misery.

    Calderon said: "I think it is a bit unfair. He has been having many problems with injuries so he couldn't play regularly.

    "He also hasn't learned any single word in Spanish. That hasn't given him the opportunity to give any interview and to get in touch with the fans."

    Calderon also said Bale suffered from constant comparisons with Cristiano Ronaldo , who left Madrid to join Juventus in a £105million move last summer.

    "He came here with a great handicap. We paid for him more than for Cristiano Ronaldo," he said.

    "The fans expected that he could be able to score more goals and to play better but to be able to play like Cristiano is impossible."
     
  18. Cochise

    Cochise Michael Carrick

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    Also read a story today that Bale could just hang up his boots as he's fed up of football and has enough money to retire.

    There are two ways of looking at this. The first is that if he's really not got that hunger anymore, do we want him? The second is that if he doesn't need the money then why not come back to Spurs on a reduced wage?
     
  19. nayimfromthehalfwayline

    nayimfromthehalfwayline Tom Huddlestone

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    Saw a post on TFC just now that described it as ex girlfriend syndrome.

    Basically, if he had never played at Spurs would anyone here really be that into signing him?
     
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  20. billyiddo

    billyiddo Paul Stewart Staff Member

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    If a deal was there to be done to sign a player of Bales calibre of course i would - the only reason we think we have a chance is because he knows the club, otherwise signing a player of his standing would be a pipe dream
     

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