Politics, politics, politics

[ricky2tricky4city]

I absolutely agree that the sensible suggestion is to just block any benefit for those who haven't contributed.

Even better than that. Instead of giving houses to the workshy, we should give them a passport, a one way ticket to Spain and instructions on claiming Spanish benefits.

Known as the 'Soldado policy'

 

[parklane1]

Except for the concessions we have been given amount to nothing and are not legally binding without 1) the agreement of other member states and 2) treaty change. Treaty change is not likely to be forthcoming in the next few years which means that Cameron after promising fundemental reform of our relationship with the EU has negotiated more or less the status quo and is attempting (and failing) to sell it as a great acheivement.

Is anyone surprised at this though? Cameron is full of brick and these so called concessions are not worth the paper they are written on.

 

[johnola]

The concessions that we have got point to exactly the opposite of this happening. You also have to remember that there are a number of countries who are outside the Eurozone who support our position on this.

Step back a bit milo. Since we joined the EEC it has been ever closer union.

I am quite happy with just as close partnership with our neighbours but with complete sovereign control at the hand of the electorate.

The eu is undemocratic and democracy comes first,

I hope we collectively vote to leave and then have the space to negotiate more sensible partnerships with the eu.

 

[monkeybarry]

Step back a bit milo. Since we joined the EEC it has been ever closer union.

I am quite happy with just as close partnership with our neighbours but with complete sovereign control at the hand of the electorate.

The eu is undemocratic and democracy comes first,

I hope we collectively vote to leave and then have the space to negotiate more sensible partnerships with the eu.

Do you trust UK politicians (thinking back over past 20 years) to achieve this though?
It's all very nice to think we are better outside the EU on paper, but can we actually achieve it?

 

[scaramanga]

Do you trust UK politicians (thinking back over past 20 years) to achieve this though?
It's all very nice to think we are better outside the EU on paper, but can we actually achieve it?

I certainly don't.

I am incredibly frustrated at Cameron underplaying his hand though. The threat of a referendum was a once in a lifetime opportunity to get what the country needed - a veto and a guarantee that this socialist experiment goes no further.

By sitting on the fence beforehand, rather than publicly stating that we get what we need or we're out, he's failed to convince Europe that they need to work to keep the UK as a member.

 

[monkeybarry]

I certainly don't.

I am incredibly frustrated at Cameron underplaying his hand though. The threat of a referendum was a once in a lifetime opportunity to get what the country needed - a veto and a guarantee that this socialist experiment goes no further.

By sitting on the fence beforehand, rather than publicly stating that we get what we need or we're out, he's failed to convince Europe that they need to work to keep the UK as a member.

Completely agree
So, do you still feel we are better "out" as it is very clear we are unlikely to be capable to manage ourselves effectively at a political level

More a question of which is the least brick option

 

[scaramanga]

Completely agree
So, do you still feel we are better "out" as it is very clear we are unlikely to be capable to manage ourselves effectively at a political level

More a question of which is the least brick option

As an employer and someone who, on a personal level, is not competing at the bottom end of the salary range I think we're better in.

We did though, have an opportunity to make the situation far better just with the threat of a referendum - I think we've lost that chance now unless Cameron resigns before the referendum (very unlikely). Even then, we'd end up with that hippy communist Osborne as PM and he'd fare no better.

 

[Grays_1890]

I think there are a number of things that you should be master of and some that can be on the table to discuss. Our own borders should be ours and not even up for discussion.

 

[monkeybarry]

As an employer and someone who, on a personal level, is not competing at the bottom end of the salary range I think we're better in.

We did though, have an opportunity to make the situation far better just with the threat of a referendum - I think we've lost that chance now unless Cameron resigns before the referendum (very unlikely). Even then, we'd end up with that hippy communist Osborne as PM and he'd fare no better.

I think Cameron knew as soon as he got a majority he was screwed re; getting anything out of EU negotiations. He lost his spacegoat coalition partners so had to go into the negotiations predicting the referendum result - if he backs in and the UK votes out (and vice versas) his position becomes untenable
So now he has to find a position that gives everyone something on paper, however I think he underestimated how much he could spin this. (Or he just knew he couldn't, but had nowhere to run)

 

[Rock Strongo]

http://variety.com/2016/biz/news/john-kerry-hollywood-studio-chiefs-isis-1201707652/

 

[scaramanga]

I think Cameron knew as soon as he got a majority he was screwed re; getting anything out of EU negotiations. He lost his spacegoat coalition partners so had to go into the negotiations predicting the referendum result - if he backs in and the UK votes out (and vice versas) his position becomes untenable
So now he has to find a position that gives everyone something on paper, however I think he underestimated how much he could spin this. (Or he just knew he couldn't, but had nowhere to run)

Interesting take from the Spectator the other day. One of their columnists believes that the weak first throw was a Machiavellian ploy by Cameron.

The idea was apparently to keep EU leaders on-side. So he comes back with something weak, there's a public outcry in the UK that it's not nearly far enough and he gets to go back to the EU saying "It's not me, it's all those nasty voters. They're going to vote to leave unless you give me much more".

I do hope that's the case although I doubt it.

 

[monkeybarry]

Interesting take from the Spectator the other day. One of their columnists believes that the weak first throw was a Machiavellian ploy by Cameron.

The idea was apparently to keep EU leaders on-side. So he comes back with something weak, there's a public outcry in the UK that it's not nearly far enough and he gets to go back to the EU saying "It's not me, it's all those nasty voters. They're going to vote to leave unless you give me much more".

I do hope that's the case although I doubt it.

I did think that before and probably plays slightly better as a self preservation tactic for Cameron.
But I moved away from that theory after he announced he wasn't going to seek re election

 

[the dza]

Interesting take from the Spectator the other day. One of their columnists believes that the weak first throw was a Machiavellian ploy by Cameron.

The idea was apparently to keep EU leaders on-side. So he comes back with something weak, there's a public outcry in the UK that it's not nearly far enough and he gets to go back to the EU saying "It's not me, it's all those nasty voters. They're going to vote to leave unless you give me much more".

I do hope that's the case although I doubt it.

The EU have said that this is a one shot re-negotiation haven't they? It might be dangerous for them to have their bluff called, they might rather let us leave than put certain things on the table and backtrack from saying "this time is the only time." And my personal bias thinks that Cameron is as wet as a bag of p1ss and won't push it.

 

[scaramanga]

The EU have said that this is a one shot re-negotiation haven't they? It might be dangerous for them to have their bluff called, they might rather let us leave than put certain things on the table and backtrack from saying "this time is the only time." And my personal bias thinks that Cameron is as wet as a bag of p1ss and won't push it.

I don't think Cameron will push it either - he's made it fairly clear that, for him, leaving the EU was never on the table.

I think he's massively underestimated the country's appetite for leaving though, and if he comes back with something akin to the draft or even less, then he'll have a struggle to keep us in.

 

[Bullet]

Listening to a BBC Radio 5 reporter yesterday, he said it is hard to fathom exactly what happens because the English guy runs out to the English press and declares he got everything he wanted. Ditto the French guy and the German guy. In fact the politicians leg it to try to get there first and get the news out first. He said Cameron left early last time while the meeting was ongoing so he could leg it down the corridor first. As usual, they act like a bunch of kids shouting each other down and legging it down the hallway, feeding us soundbites that evade the ugly truth and paint a certain picture. Then you talk to the next guy and he has a completely different spin on it.

 

[scaramanga]

Listening to a BBC Radio 5 reporter yesterday, he said it is hard to fathom exactly what happens because the English guy runs out to the English press and declares he got everything he wanted. Ditto the French guy and the German guy. In fact the politicians leg it to try to get there first and get the news out first. He said Cameron left early last time while the meeting was ongoing so he could leg it down the corridor first. As usual, they act like a bunch of kids shouting each other down and legging it down the hallway, feeding us soundbites that evade the ugly truth and paint a certain picture. Then you talk to the next guy and he has a completely different spin on it.

To be fair to the Eurocrats, they clearly don't understand the situation at all. They've all been tacoting with the hashtag #ukineu as if that's it, the job's done.

I don't know if it's arrogance or fudgewittery (both equally likely in the EU), but they don't seem to have considered that the electorate still has to have their say. Considering what a shoddy deal Cameron has come home with, they might be in for a heavy shock.

If anyone wants to know the truth of what happened over the last couple of days, I read something today that summed it up perfectly:

Cameron went to the EU to ask them what he was allowed to ask for and for how long he was allowed to have it. They told him all he could have was a "No" but he was allowed to call it a "Maybe" for the next 4 years.

 

[suffolkspur]

Indeed.

Cameron's deal is nothing more than a rebranding of the status quo. None of what he has come back with will make an iota of difference to our relationship now and everything he is promoting can be dropped at any point. Again, review what he said in his Bloomberg speech and compare it to what has been published.

For all the theatre Francois Hollande gives us an insight into the reality:

"Just because it lasted a long time doesn't mean that much happened".

"There's been no derogation from the rules of the single market, nor of veto and no amendment of the treaties."

Cameron hopes selling this "deal" as a new relationship will convince just enough of the undecideds to vote to remain. I think he will be suprised.

 

[the dza]

I am 95% sure I will vote to stay in. My reasoning is simple. Historically, Europe has always been at war and the more unified we are, the less likely we are to get involved in any big wars again. It might seem unlikely now, but maybe our grandkids would thank us for not breaking away (and in turn, causing other countries to do the same).

I appreciate the arguments from both sides, but this is the big reason to remain for me.

 

[monkeybarry]

I might vote to leave in the hope the markets react badly, the pound plummets causing a small fire sale from non UK housing investors and stopping the appeal for new ones
Combined with stopping freedom of movement, we may have a reasonable chance of getting a moderately average housing market
Oh, and Cameron will have to quit

 

[Grays_1890]

I am stuck on the whole in and out debate (Sounds like a sketch from confessions)

I have a pretty comfy life, yeh some tweaks here and there would be nice but I would not say much affects me from being in the EU.

There are a few tinkle boiling bits that annoy me from the outside in, like border control and sending credits overseas whilst old people struggle, and if that could change and we remain in I would.....I suppose

But I dont nearly know enough