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Burning a man alive WTF

Should You Kill the Fat Man? - The Scenarios
Your response that the fat man should be tortured is consistent with your view that torture is not always wrong. It also makes sense in terms of other responses you have given. In particular, on at least one occasion you have responded that it would be right to end the life of one person to save the lives of some other greater number of people. It would be strange then if you did not think it might sometimes be right to torture a person if by doing so it is possible to save all those people whose lives would otherwise be lost in a nuclear explosion.

The above is a brilliant link by the way but cannot compare to killing 100'000 people who the majority are innocent. Who were not a danger. Who were probably part of a test to see what a Nuclear weapon can really do.

Here is a question Scara - You have six 5 year old kids, one will not live beyond 10 years old. The others will not live beyond 6 years old right now. They others have a chance to live a full term if the child with 10 year life expectancy is used to donor body parts which would lead to his death. Do you leave it all alone? Or do you take his body parts as donors? Do you even have the fekin right over what to do with someone elses life because you have decided what the greater good is?
Not only would I say yes (although I have neither the stomach nor the courage to physically do so myself) I'd say it's a moral imperative that one does.

There's a really good version of the trolley problem I linked you to where it's not just yes/no, it's no/morally acceptable/morally imperative. I can't find the link but it's a little more enlightening. Most people are less clear cut than I am and suggest that killing the fat man (the innocent one) is morally acceptable but not imperative. I believe it's imperative.
 
Utterly disgusting.

So was Hiroshima.

Assad also barrel bombed and burnt alive 1000s in syria helping this group to grow in the region.

It is all bad.

I would say videoing it and using it as propoganda by ISIS is marginally worse but all in the same ball park of evilness.

Oh dear
 
I am not sure why what happened 60 odd years ago has to do with what happened the other day.

I don't know I wonder what sort of world my son is going to grow up in, on the whole I think things are better but the extremes seem to be there. I can remember when I was younger planes being hijacked all the time and sometimes people being shot. I think perhaps I got used to it, maybe my son's generation will get used to people being set on fire. Maybe I have just become one of those shocked old men I remember seeing when I was younger.

Made me sad that anyone could actually do that to someone, a human life and they just burn him, I really do not have the words to say how disgusted I am with it all.
 
Mainland Japan in 1945 had over 10 million people - military and civilian - bearing arms. To repel an allied invasion. Military. Home Guard. Civilians. The allied military planners at that time assessed that an invasion of mainland Japan would result in at least 1 million dead. Possibly far more. And thats just Japanese casualties. The fanatacism (sound familiar now?) of the Japanese was legendary, and the American island hopping of 1943/44/45 through Saipan, Iwo Jima and Okinawa amonst many others saw fanatic and suicidal Japanese defending.

Allied planners were also in a world war situation, with the world weary of nearly 6 years of war. The allied planners had a duty of care to allied servicemen, and their principal concern was allied casualties. So whilst a counter theory is Japan was beaten already, it is far from proven, and there was every indication that they would have fought fanatically on their own homeland. To the death. 100,000 dead in Hiroshima and somewhat less in Nagasaki was far less than the predictions of invasion and quicker, simpler, easier and far less risk to allied servicemen. The course of least resistance, and if it had a sideline effect of a warning to the Russians, then so much the better.... at the time. After 2 atomic bombs, Japan surrendered pretty quickly and Emperor Hirohito told the Japanese people to stop fighting.

A long time ago? The logic doesn't change.

You are flying an RAF Eurofighter Typhoon over England and you are ordered to intercept an airliner inbound for London. With 300 people on it. You are told it has been taken over by terrorists and they have a dirty bomb on board. They have refused to comply with requests to land and you are then ordered from the PM direct, to shoot it down. You have had specialist training to cope with the situation. You will obey thoses orders because to allow it to continue will likely see far more than 300 dead in London, and the 300 on the plane anyway. Same music in a (slightly more modern) different kitchen.

Its a brick dilemma and no one would wish that on their worst enemy. I empathise with LutonSpurs POV because of the implications of the situation, and vapourising people is pretty disgusting. But using the atomic bomb in 1945 had to be the correct decision. The economics of it were quite simple. Burning to death a man in a cage (for no good reason), filming it and putting it on the internet is a different gravy, and goes beyond human depravity. But then again, it is probably only on par with some of the exploits of the Japanese in WW2. Read The Knights of Bushido by Lord Russell of Liverpool. The official allied observer for the trial for war crimes by the Japanese.

It will get worse before it gets better, and it will not get better without action being taken. As Neville Chamberlain found out in the 1930's.
 
I am not sure why what happened 60 odd years ago has to do with what happened the other day.

I don't know I wonder what sort of world my son is going to grow up in, on the whole I think things are better but the extremes seem to be there. I can remember when I was younger planes being hijacked all the time and sometimes people being shot. I think perhaps I got used to it, maybe my son's generation will get used to people being set on fire. Maybe I have just become one of those shocked old men I remember seeing when I was younger.

Made me sad that anyone could actually do that to someone, a human life and they just burn him, I really do not have the words to say how disgusted I am with it all.

They were necklacing (burning) people alive in South Africa in the mid 80s.

The different was that was a mob running wild. Here its a cold, calculated set piece execution performed for a camera.
 
Re-posting this - http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

Have a read to understand from one historical angle why the common myth that nuking Japan was necessary, is not necessarily true.

One of the reasons Japan were broken was the fire bombing, no? Is there a big difference between fire bombing Tokyo and nuking Hiroshima with casualties somewhere around the 100000 people mark for both? There certainly isn't much of a difference for the civilian dying. Comparisons to the fire bombings of Dresten etc are fairly obvious.

Towards the ends of most wars peace can be said to perhaps have been possible earlier and that horrendous unnecessary suffering was inflicted. But let's talk for a second about the context. The context of 6 years of absolutely brutal war. The Japanese were far from innocent, that article repeatedly mentions the fear that the emperor would be tried as a war criminal - I think there were people in China and elsewhere that perhaps justly could claim that not having him tried as a war criminal would be a great injustice. Yes there were probably aspects of revenge, yes there were probably some political motivations. And there will always be speculations that a peace could have been negotiated earlier in most conflicts. Hiroshima happened towards the end of that war of ever increasing brutality and ever decreasing innocence, on all sides.

I don't think the context here is particularly similar. I don't think the action taken is particularly similar. Yes there have been worse atrocities than this, obviously. Many of them done by westerners. But why should the sins of our fathers stop us from being outraged at this brutality? Isn't outrage a fairly solid (first) response to this?
 
One of the reasons Japan were broken was the fire bombing, no? Is there a big difference between fire bombing Tokyo and nuking Hiroshima with casualties somewhere around the 100000 people mark for both? There certainly isn't much of a difference for the civilian dying. Comparisons to the fire bombings of Dresten etc are fairly obvious.

Towards the ends of most wars peace can be said to perhaps have been possible earlier and that horrendous unnecessary suffering was inflicted. But let's talk for a second about the context. The context of 6 years of absolutely brutal war. The Japanese were far from innocent, that article repeatedly mentions the fear that the emperor would be tried as a war criminal - I think there were people in China and elsewhere that perhaps justly could claim that not having him tried as a war criminal would be a great injustice. Yes there were probably aspects of revenge, yes there were probably some political motivations. And there will always be speculations that a peace could have been negotiated earlier in most conflicts. Hiroshima happened towards the end of that war of ever increasing brutality and ever decreasing innocence, on all sides.

I don't think the context here is particularly similar. I don't think the action taken is particularly similar. Yes there have been worse atrocities than this, obviously. Many of them done by westerners. But why should the sins of our fathers stop us from being outraged at this brutality? Isn't outrage a fairly solid (first) response to this?

We should be outraged by ISIS but we cannot be blind to our own leaders crimes. Even if you look at the use of White Phosphorous in Falluja which was birthplace of ISIS.
 
It may have saved some lives but that is up for question. Please read this - http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html and then tell me if it was OK, if you find the piece to be historically accurate.

Even if it did save a million lives I just cannot accept that civilised society can accept that incinerating 100'000 people, who were largely innocent, at any cost. It is not human.

You have the same attitude about bombing raids aimed at Germany during WW2?

We should be outraged by ISIS but we cannot be blind to our own leaders crimes. Even if you look at the use of White Phosphorous in Falluja which was birthplace of ISIS.

Agree completely on the first of those.

I don't know enough about ISIS to disagree with you. Are you saying that the west created ISIS?
 
You have the same attitude about bombing raids aimed at Germany during WW2?



Agree completely on the first of those.

I don't know enough about ISIS to disagree with you. Are you saying that the west created ISIS?

I am conflicted on the bombing of Germany in WW2, and I am conflicted about Japan. I just think collateral damage is a difficult but necessary part of war but cannot come to terms with nuking 100'000.

re: ISIS being a creation of the west. No. They exist partly as a result of the illegal invasion of Iraq, the horrific destruction of Falluja and the heinous crimes in the Abu Ghraib prison that gave birth to Zarqawi. His ideas gained strength from those images and the anger fermented in to ISIS. ISIS are an extemer and more violent version of Al Qaeda and are now an ideology unfortunately.
 
Think geopolitically. Everything ISIS does is to a geopolitical end, and this.......murder, is ultimately but a part of their wider geopolitical ambitions. The same can be said for any actors on the international stage, not just ISIS: however, given their recent prominence it is naive to assume that they do not play by the rules by which the world works.

By murdering Muadh Al-Kasabeh as horrifically as they could (and it is genuinely horrific: the whole video's up on Fox News, though I'd strongly recommend staying as far away from it as possible), they probably hoped to achieve two things: firstly, to frighten the Gulf monarchies into reducing their air operations against ISIS, and secondly, to force the USAF towards carrying out less risky air attacks from a higher flight envelope. The murder of Al-Kasabeh has generated anger in Jordan, and a renewed response from them, but notably, other Arab monarchies, chief among them the United Arab Emirates, were shaken enough to suspend all air operations in Iraq and Syria until further notice. The killing of a UAE or Qatari pilot by ISIS in a similar fashion would not inspire the same response that it did in Jordan: both these countries' monarchies do not possess the legitimacy that Jordan's sheikhs do for a variety of reasons, and the idea of both countries as independent nation-states in their own right is shaky at best, unlike in Jordan. Hence, Jordan's nationalistic fervor would likely not be replicated in these countries if their own pilots were killed by ISIS: instead, they'd see a renewed wave of Islamism gripping their mainly immigrant societies, and the thought of that is likely scary enough to the monarchs of these countries (who aren't exactly paragons of Islamic virtue) to account for their suspension of attack operations against ISIS.

So, ISIS has already probably achieved something tangible by killing Al-Kasabeh in this fashion. Their other possible objective, from a geopolitical point of view, is, as mentioned before, to force the USAF to conduct its operations from higher altitudes further above the maximum range of ISIS's surface-to-air missiles: by doing this, the USAF will have to sacrifice accuracy for pilot safety, and ISIS probably hope that this will a) reduce their casualties, and b) increase civilian casualties, which will only radicalise the population further and turn them towards the IS. There is also a possibility that the US will have to station search-and-rescue units close to Iraq and Syria to prepare for the possibility of another pilot being downed, and this gives ISIS an opportunity to engage US troops on the ground and possibly inflict further casualties and/or capture US personnel.

There is method in their brutal, horrific sadism. I only hope the decision makers in the US now see this and figure out methods to destroy them that take into account their rationality: I get the feeling that the US has too often turned rational enemies into monsters, and acted accordingly. The problem there being, monsters aren't rational: they can only be killed, not defeated. But in the real world, just mindlessly killing 'monsters' doesn't end the problems that spawned those monsters.

ISIS are desperate: their killing of Kasabeh indicates that the air campaign is working, and working well. That needs to be firmly in the minds of the decision makers in this fight.

And as for Captain Al-Kasabeh, may he find peace. If the people in charge really wanted to avenge him, they'd go after the Gulf states whose financing and support created ISIS, and ensure that they fully commit to killing the beast they themselves reared: unfortunately, geopolitics rarely works that way.
 
I am conflicted on the bombing of Germany in WW2, and I am conflicted about Japan. I just think collateral damage is a difficult but necessary part of war but cannot come to terms with nuking 100'000.

re: ISIS being a creation of the west. No. They exist partly as a result of the illegal invasion of Iraq, the horrific destruction of Falluja and the heinous crimes in the Abu Ghraib prison that gave birth to Zarqawi. His ideas gained strength from those images and the anger fermented in to ISIS. ISIS are an extemer and more violent version of Al Qaeda and are now an ideology unfortunately.

What's the difference between dying in the fire bombing of Dresden and dying in the Hiroshima blast? What's the difference between experiencing long term injury and physical and mental trauma from those two?

Hundreds of thousands of civilians died in the US fire bombings of Japanese cities. What changes with the nuke?

Think geopolitically. Everything ISIS does is to a geopolitical end, and this.......murder, is ultimately but a part of their wider geopolitical ambitions. The same can be said for any actors on the international stage, not just ISIS: however, given their recent prominence it is naive to assume that they do not play by the rules by which the world works.

By murdering Muadh Al-Kasabeh as horrifically as they could (and it is genuinely horrific: the whole video's up on Fox News, though I'd strongly recommend staying as far away from it as possible), they probably hoped to achieve two things: firstly, to frighten the Gulf monarchies into reducing their air operations against ISIS, and secondly, to force the USAF towards carrying out less risky air attacks from a higher flight envelope. The murder of Al-Kasabeh has generated anger in Jordan, and a renewed response from them, but notably, other Arab monarchies, chief among them the United Arab Emirates, were shaken enough to suspend all air operations in Iraq and Syria until further notice. The killing of a UAE or Qatari pilot by ISIS in a similar fashion would not inspire the same response that it did in Jordan: both these countries' monarchies do not possess the legitimacy that Jordan's sheikhs do for a variety of reasons, and the idea of both countries as independent nation-states in their own right is shaky at best, unlike in Jordan. Hence, Jordan's nationalistic fervor would likely not be replicated in these countries if their own pilots were killed by ISIS: instead, they'd see a renewed wave of Islamism gripping their mainly immigrant societies, and the thought of that is likely scary enough to the monarchs of these countries (who aren't exactly paragons of Islamic virtue) to account for their suspension of attack operations against ISIS.

So, ISIS has already probably achieved something tangible by killing Al-Kasabeh in this fashion. Their other possible objective, from a geopolitical point of view, is, as mentioned before, to force the USAF to conduct its operations from higher altitudes further above the maximum range of ISIS's surface-to-air missiles: by doing this, the USAF will have to sacrifice accuracy for pilot safety, and ISIS probably hope that this will a) reduce their casualties, and b) increase civilian casualties, which will only radicalise the population further and turn them towards the IS. There is also a possibility that the US will have to station search-and-rescue units close to Iraq and Syria to prepare for the possibility of another pilot being downed, and this gives ISIS an opportunity to engage US troops on the ground and possibly inflict further casualties and/or capture US personnel.

There is method in their brutal, horrific sadism. I only hope the decision makers in the US now see this and figure out methods to destroy them that take into account their rationality: I get the feeling that the US has too often turned rational enemies into monsters, and acted accordingly. The problem there being, monsters aren't rational: they can only be killed, not defeated. But in the real world, just mindlessly killing 'monsters' doesn't end the problems that spawned those monsters.

ISIS are desperate: their killing of Kasabeh indicates that the air campaign is working, and working well. That needs to be firmly in the minds of the decision makers in this fight.

And as for Captain Al-Kasabeh, may he find peace. If the people in charge really wanted to avenge him, they'd go after the Gulf states whose financing and support created ISIS, and ensure that they fully commit to killing the beast they themselves reared: unfortunately, geopolitics rarely works that way.

Excellent post Dubai!

I agree that the rationality of the response is vital in situations like these. It's interesting that WW2 and the terror bombings have been compared as I it seems the reaction in Jordan has been one of resistance, nationalism and determined anger like you describe. Not unlike how most civilian populations responded during WW2.

You're right that the US is key. Like or dislike them, but sometimes it seems like we do need a "world police" and I don't see anyone else trying to do that job.
 
What's the difference between dying in the fire bombing of Dresden and dying in the Hiroshima blast? What's the difference between experiencing long term injury and physical and mental trauma from those two?

Hundreds of thousands of civilians died in the US fire bombings of Japanese cities. What changes with the nuke?



Excellent post Dubai!

I agree that the rationality of the response is vital in situations like these. It's interesting that WW2 and the terror bombings have been compared as I it seems the reaction in Jordan has been one of resistance, nationalism and determined anger like you describe. Not unlike how most civilian populations responded during WW2.

You're right that the US is key. Like or dislike them, but sometimes it seems like we do need a "world police" and I don't see anyone else trying to do that job.

The worry is that their declining power relative to their primary challenger for world hegemony (China) will soon force them to devote more resources to countering that threat to their dominance, which will in turn lead to them having far less interest or spare resources to devote towards doing the world police job they've been doing ever since they assumed pole position post 1991.

They do what's in their interest, same as all other nations. But again, geopolitically, every single nation put in their place would do the same. It is to our benefit ('our' here understood to mean the ordinary bloke in most parts of the world) that their geopolitical interests include preserving the system of world governance they themselves created.

China's been a free rider on their way up, but they're also generally non-interventionist and very inward-looking for a future hegemon. If people are upset about the US blundering into places with their belief in American exceptionalism and reformist zeal, just try waiting until they're no longer strong enough to combat the likes of IS and other global terror organizations. China won't pick up that slack, and U.S attempts to form a sort of global G2 with them and China jointly solving world issues have failed miserably for various reasons.

When future ISIS roams around burning more enemy combatants alive, pushing gay people off tall buildings to their death, selling women and children as sex slaves, and imposing a barbaric 'Caliphate' at will, there'll be no one coming in to stop them. And the same people who complain about U.S interventionism when they're bombing creeps like ISIS now will by then be crying out for someone to come in and stop them.

Sigh. World policing: it's a hell of a job.
 
The worry is that their declining power relative to their primary challenger for world hegemony (China) will soon force them to devote more resources to countering that threat to their dominance, which will in turn lead to them having far less interest or spare resources to devote towards doing the world police job they've been doing ever since they assumed pole position post 1991.

They do what's in their interest, same as all other nations. But again, geopolitically, every single nation put in their place would do the same. It is to our benefit ('our' here understood to mean the ordinary bloke in most parts of the world) that their geopolitical interests include preserving the system of world governance they themselves created.

China's been a free rider on their way up, but they're also generally non-interventionist and very inward-looking for a future hegemon. If people are upset about the US blundering into places with their belief in American exceptionalism and reformist zeal, just try waiting until they're no longer strong enough to combat the likes of IS and other global terror organizations. China won't pick up that slack, and U.S attempts to form a sort of global G2 with them and China jointly solving world issues have failed miserably for various reasons.

When future ISIS roams around burning more enemy combatants alive, pushing gay people off tall buildings to their death, selling women and children as sex slaves, and imposing a barbaric 'Caliphate' at will, there'll be no one coming in to stop them. And the same people who complain about U.S interventionism when they're bombing creeps like ISIS now will by then be crying out for someone to come in and stop them.

Sigh. World policing: it's a hell of a job.

Another very good post mate.

When I get the job as dictator of the world I'll hire you as one of my advisors on world policing issues ;) (I have a feeling there might be some)

I will stipulate in your contract that you'll have to like both me and Levy though... :p

Edit: To add something of relevance to the thread...

I really liked your assessment of the post-cold-war role the US have taken up and the reasons why that might not always be a role they've been able to play. For various reasons I think anti-US sentiments have risen over those decades, but I think the negative impact their geopolitical activities had during the "cold" war was much greater. Seems only natural when you frame it like you do, then they had someone to compete with and their own interests were more centered as anti-Soviet interests.

Agree on China too. Their position seems to be fairly isolationistic and, like the US often have been, happy enough to collaborate and trade with whatever horrible dictator has power as long as there's money to be made and financial stability. For better and for worse their lack of a democratic approach allows them to take some really long term views on issues that democracies can't to the same extent. In some ways that's truly terrifying.
 
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You braine, I like already: no problem there. :) As for Levy, I'm sure he's a great bloke, just an unpleasantly unambitious chairman of the club I love: allow me to deck him just once for that, and I'll happily make up with him over drinks at your supervillain lair after. :p

As for this thread, I entirely agree with your conclusions on the future with a multi-polar and eventually China-dominated world (although that eventuality will take longer than many geopolitical thinkers tend to assume, I feel - the US isn't done being rooster of the hoop just yet). And as for the man whose killing created this thread....I hope Captain Muadh Al-Kasabeh, Royal Jordanian Air Force, has found some peace now.And I hope his religion provided him some solace as he faced his end as bravely as I've seen anyone do. He was a good man, by all accounts. And one of the best things that his death can do now (realistically speaking) is to prove to the world that Muslims are fighting ISIS too, and doing so honestly and bravely despite the machinations of their sheikhs, kings and leaders higher up the chain of command. Hopefully some of the Islamophobia that grew in the wake of Paris will be nullified by that knowledge.
 
Hopefully some of the Islamophobia that grew in the wake of Paris will be nullified by that knowledge.
Is islamaphobia necessarily wrong?

I'd say that as a rational thinker it's entirely logical, if not expected, that I dislike all religions. And I don't think it's unwise to be at least a little perturbed by anyone who modifies their behaviour based on the voices in their head from their imaginary friend.
 
Is islamaphobia necessarily wrong?

I'd say that as a rational thinker it's entirely logical, if not expected, that I dislike all religions. And I don't think it's unwise to be at least a little perturbed by anyone who modifies their behaviour based on the voices in their head from their imaginary friend.

It is wrong for two reasons: firstly, it singles out Islam and Muslims for special discrimination, and secondly, it is deeply counter-productive. The first point relates to your own views on the subject, which largely echo with mine: I'm not a religious man, and save for some vague notions regarding Deism which I'd like to eventually explore when I've got the time to do so, I don't think much of spiritual pursuits and generally see them as geopolitical tools more than anything else. However, Islamophobia singles out that particular religion, and that's just wrong in my view: I've seen enough religions in action during my travels and in my place of ethnic origin (India) to know that Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and even Jews can at times be as violent and barbaric as the very worst Islamists when it comes to defending their own imaginary friends, and all of the holy books written a thousand years ago seem deeply flawed today in one form or another (Sikhism and Jainism are rare exceptions to this general rule, but even they have flaws). Islam has over a billion adherents with hugely different views and values, but its birthplace is in the ever-roiling Middle East, center of the West's media attention: its own flaws and problems are magnified a thousand fold due to that unfortunate circumstance, while gay men being necklaced in deeply Christian Uganda, Buddhists massacring Muslims in Myanmar, and Hindu extremists killing Christian missionaries in India are overlooked because they don't happen to be the Western media's targets for ire. I'd be happy with all religions being equally disdained by the populace (while still being allowed to exist, of course), but picking on Islam because the lunatics in the religion get so much screen time compared to the rest is just wrong from my logical standpoint.

The second reason Islamophobia isn't a good thing is, as mentioned before, that it is deeply counter- productive. If we in the West alienate Muslims already here, they'll only withdraw further into their own communities, which will then create endless opportunities for power-hungry mullahs to keep them scared of the wider society outside their mosques and communities and thus radicalize the previously moderate populations. And any actions loonies drunk on Islamophobia take against the Muslim community in particular (again, discriminating against them somewhat unfairly) will create endless fuel for the ISISes and Al-Qaedas to use in their recruitment videos and war against the 'Crusaders'. It serves no practical purpose, and only harms the West.

Look, religions are all largely bunkum in some form or another. Oppose them all, or oppose none: discriminating when it comes to judging one imaginary friend worse than another won't help us one bit, from both a moral and practical standpoint.
 
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