Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Gutter Boy]

I think at the moment we are perhaps the easiest team to defend against in the league. We have no pace, no width and no power up front. Teams can defend high up the pitch and be confident that we don't have the pace to expose that, teams can also push their fullbacks on safe in the knowledge that when we get the ball in wide positions we will take it back inside and not expose the gaps that their attacking fullbacks leave.

Succinct and unfortunately probably true. We need a functioning Adebayor back, scoring goals.

Teams don't defend high against us because they would be cut apart by our creative AMs and Soldado's movement. Teams defend deep against us to crowd us out and make it harder to thread balls. What we need to do is to improve our synchronised movement (Barca style) to pull defenders out and create space in the melee (alongside the quicker transitioning, which Mason and Bentaleb are now giving us).

We can't just give back possession because we can't cope with organised defences. We need to hone the art of breaking them down.

Isn't PL prize money about £500k per place?..... The difference financially between finishing 5th and 17th would probably be worth more money than profit made from a Europa league run to the last 16 or even quarters.... Especially now most fans cant even be bothered to go to the games even at the special low prices.

I can't see us finishing below 7th tbh, but I mean there will be no pressure to specifically get 5th or 6th (like the closing weeks of last season) if a non-CL team wins one of the domestic cups.

EL group games still get about 25k IIRC. And tickets aren't especially cheap - they went up from £20 to £25 this season

 

[glasgowspur]

Re the plan b, I would much rather get plan A fixed in players minds with a consistent team than worry about a plan b. Focus on plan A, get it right then move on to plan b.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[Gutter Boy]

Re the plan b, I would much rather get plan A fixed in players minds with a consistent team than worry about a plan b. Focus on plan A, get it right then move on to plan b.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

Agree.

I don't really get this plan b thing. Do Barca or Ajax or Dortmund or Porto go and put their equivalent of Fazio as CF when they can't break teams down, or do they stick to the principles that permeate their clubs from U8 level? Do Neil Warnock or Tony Pulis tell their teams not to be organised and hardworking when that isn't really coming off? The whole point of having a system is that it makes teams greater than the individual components.

You just have to be relentless. Liverpool of the 70s were one of the best system teams. They often won games in the closing minutes, not because they changed to plan b, but because they were relentless.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Teams don't defend high against us because they would be cut apart by our creative AMs and Soldado's movement. Teams defend deep against us to crowd us out and make it harder to thread balls. What we need to do is to improve our synchronised movement (Barca style) to pull defenders out and create space in the melee (alongside the quicker transitioning, which Mason and Bentaleb are now giving us).

We can't just give back possession because we can't cope with organised defences. We need to hone the art of breaking them down.




I can't see us finishing below 7th tbh, but I mean there will be no pressure to specifically get 5th or 6th (like the closing weeks of last season) if a non-CL team wins one of the domestic cups.

EL group games still get about 25k IIRC. And tickets aren't especially cheap - they went up from £20 to £25 this season

I used to agree with you on this point but it's been 2 and a half years since AVB was hired and I think we could honestly count the performances on one hand including both AVB's and Poch's teams where we've been able to break teams down that defend deep against us through clever movement and not pace on the break.

I totally understand people saying 'you can't expect change after 15 games' or whatever, but this is 2 and a half years. And not just 2 and a half years of inconsistency, but 2 and a half years of frankly awful, diabolical football at home against any team that lacks ambition.

And that isn't right. I think this goes beyond the players needing to learn. Actually I think the players have been coached pretty well under both AVB and Poch to play a system that requires clever movement, and we can often break teams down playing nice football when away. But I think we've been too hard on the players in thinking that they still haven't learnt to play this way, I think the issue is beyond that now. The performances at home to any team that lacks ambition are absolutely awful.

It simply shouldn't take 2 and a half years to learn it. Not when Southampton can pick it up in a few months. Not when we have a squad full of quality players, including some great ball playing centre backs and some of the brightest young attacking midfielders in world football.

We need a bigger pitch or we need to play with pace when at home. Our players are constantly derided for playing too slow but they are receiving the ball in the tightest of areas and trying to thread passes through the eye of a needle. It doesn't work when the opposition's entire focus is to swarm the ball in their half and never let up. The margins are fine and more space to play would see us improve, or we use the pitch to our advantage and sting people with pace before they have a chance to recover.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Agree.

I don't really get this plan b thing. Do Barca or Ajax or Dortmund or Porto go and put their equivalent of Fazio as CF when they can't break teams down, or do they stick to the principles that permeate their clubs from U8 level? Do Neil Warnock or Tony Pulis tell their teams not to be organised and hardworking when that isn't really coming off? The whole point of having a system is that it makes teams greater than the individual components.

You just have to be relentless. Liverpool of the 70s were one of the best system teams. They often won games in the closing minutes, not because they changed to plan b, but because they were relentless.

You have picked the best and most dominant teams in their league (other than Dortmund due to Bayerns money). Their also the teams with the most money (give or take one other side) and best players.. I think the Ajax angle is probably te best case to support your argument but again they haven't really done anything outside of their own league for some time

However in this country the best side I've seen is the United team under Ferguson and it was versatile in style, structure and approach. It wasnt a system team neccesarily, it was a collective of great components making an amazing collective

We look nothing like a team and haven't for some time. And now we lack the real individual brilliance we have had with Bale, VDV etx...

We need to get a structure right I agree but we also need to play well with that structure otherwise clearly the structure is fkawed??

 

[Finney Is Back]

Teams don't defend high against us because they would be cut apart by our creative AMs and Soldado's movement. Teams defend deep against us to crowd us out and make it harder to thread balls. What we need to do is to improve our synchronised movement (Barca style) to pull defenders out and create space in the melee (alongside the quicker transitioning, which Mason and Bentaleb are now giving us).

Teams defend wherever they want against us as we don't have the pace to trouble them if they defend high and don't have the physicality to stop them defending deep. Soldado would struggle to cut apart a defence made out of A4 sheets of paper, even if given a pair of really sharp scissors (in fact he would probably accidently stab himself!)

What I typically see from teams playing against Spurs are teams who are not at all afraid to push their fullbacks up to try to create numerical advantages against us in the wide areas. They also look to push a midfielder on to get into space in front of our centre halves, who then have to come out to try to close them down, which creates space for the opposition's striker - and this has worked a treat earlier this season with (the useless) Capoue in there - although at least the manager has finally realised this and got a decent player in there (I wonder who it was that eventually told him?.... Perhaps it was Levy?) If the opposition turn over possession they are not too worried about their fullbacks being too high up the pitch as our wide players will simply bring the ball back inside to where the opposition have safety in numbers anyway. We then typically fiddle around with a few (admittedly pleasing on the eye) passes around the half way line as the opposition get themselves back into position. This makes our 'possession stats' look nice and high and our 'pass completion ratios' look good, which some fans then use to justify a player being in the team who is actually having no positive effect at all on the game. After the opposition are nicely back in place and well organised we eventually try to thread an eye of a needle pass that inevitably fails.

We can't just give back possession because we can't cope with organised defences. We need to hone the art of breaking them down.

I'm not advocating giving back possession, I am talking about making it easier to break the organised defences down by ensuring we're not trying to play all of our football in the areas where the opposition have most of their players. Our players don't seem to have the movement, touch, vision or execution of the players at Barcelona, so let's make things easier for them by stretching the opposition's defence a little and creating some space to attack in.

I can't see us finishing below 7th tbh, but I mean there will be no pressure to specifically get 5th or 6th (like the closing weeks of last season) if a non-CL team wins one of the domestic cups.

Whereas I can't see how anyone would think that we will finish even as high as 7th right now. We have seen Palace, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, WBA and Stoke all come to The Lane and be completely untroubled defensively, while having more threat themselves when attacking than we do. Two away wins completely influenced by red cards to the opposition have put us in a false position in the table in comparison to our overall performances.

EL group games still get about 25k IIRC. And tickets aren't especially cheap - they went up from £20 to £25 this season

I think with the concessions on offer and make up of the crowd the average price achieved per ticket is probably much closer to about £15 a ticket.... The Europa league is not at all lucrative for us. If we really are to ensure that we finish as high as 7th in the league then we need to quickly improve. Also if we don't quickly improve then the number of people still bothering to attend the EL matches will probably reduce even further.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Agree.

I don't really get this plan b thing. Do Barca or Ajax or Dortmund or Porto go and put their equivalent of Fazio as CF when they can't break teams down, or do they stick to the principles that permeate their clubs from U8 level? Do Neil Warnock or Tony Pulis tell their teams not to be organised and hardworking when that isn't really coming off? The whole point of having a system is that it makes teams greater than the individual components.

You just have to be relentless. Liverpool of the 70s were one of the best system teams. They often won games in the closing minutes, not because they changed to plan b, but because they were relentless.

I would bloody well hope that every manager sends his team out to be well organised?.... If ours doesn't then we have the wrong man in the job.

I see that you have picked teams who are the first or second most dominant force in their league. Teams who are able to have far better players than all but perhaps 1 other team in their league. We were the 6th best team in our league last season and are currently the 10th best team in our league. I don't think we can therefore afford to only have one way of playing. Yes we should have a philosophy, but if that philosophy currently makes us the 10th best team and the opposition are countering the philosophy effectively then I think we should expect our manager to have a trick or two up his sleeve to perhaps outwit the opposition manager.

I am not talking about sticking Fazio up front (and you know I'm not!).... I am talking about altering our shape a little on the pitch by ensuring that we have some width, width that is likely to stretch the opposition and create space for others. The teams that you mention do indeed stick to their principles, however that is typically because their principles are leading to them creating chances and it more a 'matter of time' before they score. On Saturday against Palace (and against Stoke, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, WBA) our 'principles' were not really resulting in decent chances being created. I would prefer it if our manager accepted that and tried to change things in that event.

Actually while you're on GB - I'd like to get your view on old 'pie and chips' Warnock. The manager that you put forward as the likely man we would turn to if Pochettino were to walk/lose his job....

Despite having a much smaller squad, lower transfer budget, less pull for good players and a wage bill vastly lower than ours in the last couple of weeks he has managed to do a bit of a number tactically on both Pochettino and Rogers hasn't he? Is Warnock actually better than you had given him credit for or are Rogers and Pochettino predictable in their gameplans and easy for the opposition to set a team up against and be successful despite having less overall talent?

Maybe that pie is actually a gourmet one, and perhaps the chips are actually three times cooked Gordon Ramsey style? Or could it be that our paella is simply a cheap and nasty one out of an Uncle Bens packet?

 

[shaney]

I would like us to bag EL by winning the League Cup in Feb, then the pressure is off in the league and finishing 5th-17th makes no difference. That gives Poch the space in the spring to work on things for a proper challenge next season.

If you think finishing 5th or 17th makes no difference then you dont know Mr Levy.

 

[milo]

If you think finishing 5th or 17th makes no difference then you dont know Mr Levy.

I don't think that league finish is the only way he would judge whether Poch's first season has been a success.

 

[Modric THFC]

I don't think that league finish is the only way he would judge whether Poch's first season has been a success.

Indeed you dont judge a transformational leader on short term results.
His main role this season is challenging and changing the culture.

 

[Yermiyahu]

I would bloody well hope that every manager sends his team out to be well organised?.... If ours doesn't then we have the wrong man in the job.

I see that you have picked teams who are the first or second most dominant force in their league. Teams who are able to have far better players than all but perhaps 1 other team in their league. We were the 6th best team in our league last season and are currently the 10th best team in our league. I don't think we can therefore afford to only have one way of playing. Yes we should have a philosophy, but if that philosophy currently makes us the 10th best team and the opposition are countering the philosophy effectively then I think we should expect our manager to have a trick or two up his sleeve to perhaps outwit the opposition manager.

I am not talking about sticking Fazio up front (and you know I'm not!).... I am talking about altering our shape a little on the pitch by ensuring that we have some width, width that is likely to stretch the opposition and create space for others. The teams that you mention do indeed stick to their principles, however that is typically because their principles are leading to them creating chances and it more a 'matter of time' before they score. On Saturday against Palace (and against Stoke, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, WBA) our 'principles' were not really resulting in decent chances being created. I would prefer it if our manager accepted that and tried to change things in that event.

Actually while you're on GB - I'd like to get your view on old 'pie and chips' Warnock. The manager that you put forward as the likely man we would turn to if Pochettino were to walk/lose his job....

Despite having a much smaller squad, lower transfer budget, less pull for good players and a wage bill vastly lower than ours in the last couple of weeks he has managed to do a bit of a number tactically on both Pochettino and Rogers hasn't he? Is Warnock actually better than you had given him credit for or are Rogers and Pochettino predictable in their gameplans and easy for the opposition to set a team up against and be successful despite having less overall talent?

Maybe that pie is actually a gourmet one, and perhaps the chips are actually three times cooked Gordon Ramsey style? Or could it be that our paella is simply a cheap and nasty one out of an Uncle Bens packet?

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

 

[unit kaboom]

[/B]

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

I wouldn't say it was brilliant at all. The metaphor was mildly amusing but the general post is just another in a long line of "told you so" style posting from finny is back and a few others.
I used to really enjoy this forum but this constant negative, points scoring, agenda driving way of talking to other posters is really dull.

 

[billyiddo]

Ive never known anyone to take GB so seriously

 

[Gutter Boy]

I would bloody well hope that every manager sends his team out to be well organised?.... If ours doesn't then we have the wrong man in the job.

I see that you have picked teams who are the first or second most dominant force in their league. Teams who are able to have far better players than all but perhaps 1 other team in their league. We were the 6th best team in our league last season and are currently the 10th best team in our league. I don't think we can therefore afford to only have one way of playing. Yes we should have a philosophy, but if that philosophy currently makes us the 10th best team and the opposition are countering the philosophy effectively then I think we should expect our manager to have a trick or two up his sleeve to perhaps outwit the opposition manager.

I am not talking about sticking Fazio up front (and you know I'm not!).... I am talking about altering our shape a little on the pitch by ensuring that we have some width, width that is likely to stretch the opposition and create space for others. The teams that you mention do indeed stick to their principles, however that is typically because their principles are leading to them creating chances and it more a 'matter of time' before they score. On Saturday against Palace (and against Stoke, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, WBA) our 'principles' were not really resulting in decent chances being created. I would prefer it if our manager accepted that and tried to change things in that event.

Actually while you're on GB - I'd like to get your view on old 'pie and chips' Warnock. The manager that you put forward as the likely man we would turn to if Pochettino were to walk/lose his job....

Despite having a much smaller squad, lower transfer budget, less pull for good players and a wage bill vastly lower than ours in the last couple of weeks he has managed to do a bit of a number tactically on both Pochettino and Rogers hasn't he? Is Warnock actually better than you had given him credit for or are Rogers and Pochettino predictable in their gameplans and easy for the opposition to set a team up against and be successful despite having less overall talent?

Maybe that pie is actually a gourmet one, and perhaps the chips are actually three times cooked Gordon Ramsey style? Or could it be that our paella is simply a cheap and nasty one out of an Uncle Bens packet?

I actually quite like Warnock tbh. I used to watch his Sheff U quite a bit.

I do though think that managers like him and Pulis will always have a ceiling. They are terrific at getting traditional yo-yo clubs to the prem and then, after a while, safe in mid-table. I certainly wouldn't belittle their tactical acumen.

But I don't think he'd fit in with us anymore than say Michael Brown or Raziack did (cracking bottom half/upper championship players though they were)

 

[Maltese Falcon]

But I don't think he'd fit in with us anymore than say Michael Brown or Raziack did (cracking bottom half/upper championship players though they were)

Ironically you said EXACTLY the same thing about Harry - and pined for a sophisticated coach like AVB; then did the same for Sherwood and wanted Poch...

 

[milo]

Ironically you said EXACTLY the same thing about Harry - and pined for a sophisticated coach like AVB; then did the same for Sherwood and wanted Poch...

To be fair to GB, I think that his order of preference was LvG, FdB and Poch.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

To be fair to GB, I think that his order of preference was LvG, FdB and Poch.

That's not the point...

We are always pining for the latest sexy manager or player - dishing traditional options because they are not good enough for us - yet the only time we ever achieved anything recently was precisely with that type of manager...

Talk about delusion...

 

[Jurgen the German]

I don't think that league finish is the only way he would judge whether Poch's first season has been a success.

Possibly, but there must have been short term targets e.g. finish lower than 10th and you're a goner.

 

[Baleforce]

i don't think position is at all relevant this season, the squad is a mess, its gonna take some time to fix, he should be judged solely on his shaping of the squad imo

 

[milo]

That's not the point...

We are always pining for the latest sexy manager or player - dishing traditional options because they are not good enough for us - yet the only time we ever achieved anything recently was precisely with that type of manager...

Talk about delusion...

I think that if we are honest sections of our fan base are critical of the manager regardless of who they are.

We achieved our greatest success when we had our best squad in recent times. We are performing less well at the moment because we do not currently have a squad at that level.