AVB - I want him out now!

[milo]

Imagine if things would have been different in AVB got in Villa and Bernard like planned.

or Oscar last year.

And Willian and most of all Moutinho

 

[Mumorn]

And Willian and most of all Moutinho

It's a bit weird that AVB went from linked with Moutinho though to then going on to purchase Dembele/Paulinho type. It's like if he doesnt get in the player he wanted for a style he wants, it's like he has completely changed style.

 

[scaramanga]

I have seen Capoue for years in France, and he'll never be as good as Parker was a couple of years ago.

I'd like to think anyone calling themselves a professional footballer can consider themselves at least as good as Parker.

In fact I used to be able to run a lot and I'm also very good at not being very good at passing. I'm probably not far off myself

 

[Pirate55]

I've been mulling over starting a thread on this for a few weeks now but maybe this is a better place for it.

I know that these two propositions are not mutually exclusive but a hypothetical question for you and everyone else.

Would you be more content playing attractive football but being a little open and finishing mid-table?

Or should we try to implement a system that may help us to continue to compete for champions league places regularly and allows us to make best use of the meagre resources compared to the teams that we are competing against?

First, I don't accept your proposition that the two are mutually exclusive. Nor do I think the formulaic way AVB has been playing will automatically achieve success. Nor would I consider our resources "meagre".

What I would most like is for us to achieve success while playing entertaining football. If we are going to come up just short due to the greater resources of our main rivals, then I would rather be entertained than bored rigid. I hope that answers your question.

 

[NWND]

I've been mulling over starting a thread on this for a few weeks now but maybe this is a better place for it.

I know that these two propositions are not mutually exclusive but a hypothetical question for you and everyone else.

Would you be more content playing attractive football but being a little open and finishing mid-table?

Or should we try to implement a system that may help us to continue to compete for champions league places regularly and allows us to make best use of the meagre resources compared to the teams that we are competing against?

Why do they have to be exclusive?

I look at the majority of the best teams: Man U, Arsenal, Bayern, Dortmund, Barca, Real.

The most successful teams play attacking football. If you go out to attack and still keep an eye on what you're doing defensively you will entertain and win!

AVB had his base, he had a settled and very solid spine:

Lloris

Walker Dawson Vertonghen BAE/Rose

Sandro Dembele

All he needs to do is play that spine then bring in the new attacking players and say 'let's play!'

Give them a bit of structure, work on movement and combinations in training and off you go! Freedom to express!

How come Rogers had Liverpool playing really well by the second half of last season with an average/mundane squad and Suarez?

How come Wenger has to manage a massive turn over of playing staff every other summer, integrates foreign talent and plays good football while keeping them competitive???

 

[billyiddo]

It's a bit weird that AVB went from linked with Moutinho though to then going on to purchase Dembele/Paulinho type. It's like if he doesnt get in the player he wanted for a style he wants, it's like he has completely changed style.

i thought what transpired was that originally we wanted Baldini last summer but he couldn't get out of Roma at the time and AVB, not being transfer orientated, put forward some names of players he knew but beyond that list the club was working on it's own sources

 

[colin fishwick]

You don't buy Eriksen, Lamela, Soldado for £70m if you want to play dull and negative football. (And if player purchases are not your decision, then you don't hang about to play the game of having to field players you don't want while PSG come knocking).

I think it's pretty clear that AVB wants us to be a well organise unit, all about ball possession and closing down the opposition. Tight defensive game, lots of passing, quick counter attack. Throw in a couple of electric players who can run at the opposition and you have some variety.

But it's not working quite right yet. So we give it time. All very well that Eriksen and Lamela show glimpses but often quality players take a time to come through. And who knows what the story is? All I know is that Europa league against a Moldovan side is a different match altogether than a run of the mill Premiership clash. Not necessarily harder or easier, just different.

One thing that was evident to me even just watching the games at home this week was the difference in the crowd. No goals for 60 mins against sherif and the fans were still rocking and kept going till the end . On Sunday yes we were a goal down earlier but the principle of patience remains. We threw everything at Saudi Sportswashing Machine (bar Lamela ) so whose to say a bit of 1882 would have made a difference? But the negativity in the first half from the stands didn't help.

I did feel the signs were there last year that AVB will learn from his experiences. We got burnt with a manager who, for all his success with us, blatantly never had a plan B. But I think we do have a boss who is a bit of a tinker man and would happily give him longer.

A bigger problem than AVB is WHL, season ticket holders (not all but a lot) and Sunday matches . AVB got this out there a few weeks ago but the fans themselves need to keep this on the agenda.

Support the team, support the manager. COYS!

You say " you don't but Soldado, Eriksen and Lamela for £70m and want to play dull football.

Well , the only to have been a regular starter is Soldado and he an extremely dull striker. Eriksen ahs been dropped and Lamela has not started a single PL match so if that is your yardstick AVB does not come out of it well.

His ultra cautious approach to Lamela shows AVB in a terrible light. If Lamela come in and does well , it will show how stupid AVB has been . We can see the points we have dropped from showing such a lack of creativity.

If Lamela doe snot do well, it could still be AVB fault for not letting Lamela flow.

Either way AVB has been terrible so far this season and deserves all the stick he gets.

That is not the same as saying he should be sacked, but he has rightly lost a lot of goodwill. For being ultra cautious and negative and not getting the results . So lose lose

 

[milo]

First, I don't accept your proposition that the two are mutually exclusive. Nor do I think the formulaic way AVB has been playing will automatically achieve success. Nor would I consider our resources "meagre".

What I would most like is for us to achieve success while playing entertaining football. If we are going to come up just short due to the greater resources of our main rivals, then I would rather be entertained than bored rigid. I hope that answers your question.

I agree which is why I said so before I asked the hypothetical question.

I do think that the old project management principle of there being three elements to any project:

Cost
Quality
Time

You can only achieve two of the three. You can a high quality product, quickly but it will be expensive. Or you can have it within budget an delivered on time but the quality will suffer...

I would agrue that we have taken the thurd option and signed quality players (or players with high potential) at a close to zero net spend but following this principle, it will take longer to deliver.

I am now going to go and shoot myself for using the word project in a football context.

 

[Pirate55]

Why do they have to be exclusive?

I look at the majority of the best teams: Man U, Arsenal, Bayern, Dortmund, Barca, Real.

The most successful teams play attacking football. If you go out to attack and still keep an eye on what you're doing defensively you will entertain and win!

AVB had his base, he had a settled and very solid spine:

Lloris

Walker Dawson Vertonghen BAE/Rose

Sandro Dembele

All he needs to do is play that spine then bring in the new attacking players and say 'let's play!'

Give them a bit of structure, work on movement and combinations in training and off you go! Freedom to express!

How come Rogers had Liverpool playing really well by the second half of last season with an average/mundane squad and Suarez?

How come Wenger has to manage a massive turn over of playing staff every other summer, integrates foreign talent and plays good football while keeping them competitive???

This. The best form of defence is attack. Not boring everyone to death.

 

[billyiddo]

tell that to Ossie :lol:

 

[Pirate55]

I agree which is why I said so before I asked the hypothetical question.

I do think that the old project management principle of there being three elements to any project:

Cost
Quality
Time

You can only achieve two of the three. You can a high quality product, quickly but it will be expensive. Or you can have it within budget an delivered on time but the quality will suffer...

I would agrue that we have taken the thurd option and signed quality players (or players with high potential) at a close to zero net spend but following this principle, it will take longer to deliver.

I am now going to go and shoot myself for using the word project in a football context.

Think it's time to shoot yourself

Football can't be compared to a project management project in any way, shape or form. It is this type of management jargon which is over-complicating a relatively simple game. Score more goals than the opposition an success is guaranteed.

 

[The Portugeezer]

He's managed to numb and suck my enjoyment out of watching Spurs.

Hoddle, Santini, Jol, Ramos, Redknapp... They all had their faults, but none of them produced such soul-destroying football teams, such painful displays, such joyless, souless football, with no goals, in either end of the pitch.

FFS even Graham's teams had more life about them with Ginola and Anderton on song! We won something too!

I can't believe that no other manager received the backing he did, yet produced the pile of turd he has.

£30m creative talents left on the bench. Danish play-maker wizards get the odd game. One of Spain's top marksmen disappears. One of Brazil's starters looks lost! No width, no defence splitting passes, no crosses, no dribbling, no pace...

Just mundane huff n puff, we squeeze past the poorest with soft penalties and last-minute winners. We play for clean sheets at home.

We've got the best squad I can ever remember but I hate watching Spurs the most I ever have.

Each game is torture, cringe worthy torture. The stadium's full of tension, WHL is quiet, frought, nail biting, watching us pass sideways, backwards, sideways, backwards, not going anywhere.

I hate it. I just want to see some freedom and joy in our play. I want to enjoy watching us, win, lose or draw. I want the atmosphere at the stadium to be like it was and feel everyone was united behind the club, players and manager.

We're tense, at each other's throats, divided, subdued, angry, the managers having a go at us, but he needs to look at himself.

The fans don't help, but the footballs so poor there is nothing to cheer about.

I want him out! Now!

 

[Cochise]

Had Townsend not done what he did for England, I think Lamela would have had a start in the league. If we had been scoring goals in games, I'm certain he would've had even more minutes under his belt, but because things aren't working out AVB isn't taking the risk. Maybe a risk is what is needed, throw him in for the next Home game (even though it is against UTD) and give him the 90. Show the lad some faith and he may just do something.

Still think had Chirches not suffered a broken nose Lamela would've been our second sub. AVB likely wanted to persist with the same formation but different personel before forcing the 442.

 

[DMac]

I downloaded and watched Southampton's game against Hull (and have watched a few other games they've played this season). They actually are similar to us in a number of ways - how vigorously they press and win the ball back, how they play a fairly high line, etc, but they are so much better at it than we are lol. Not really at pressing and playing a high line because we do that well, but within that system the way they pass it, they way they run and move off the ball, the way they play the ball quickly out of their own half and counterattack, is on a different level to us.

That's what makes me think that the coach has something to do with it. Because Pochettino came to Southampton and they were leaking goals and he quickly got the defensive system working, and now they also look very good attacking as well. AVB's been here for 15 months and we've averaged about 1 goal from open play per 2 games. That's not good enough and he needs to sort it out really quickly. Pochettino's style of play and "system" seems to enable the Southampton players to be better - more than a sum of their parts, while AVB (at the moment) has our team playing as less than the sum of its parts.

 

[NWND]

I agree which is why I said so before I asked the hypothetical question.

I do think that the old project management principle of there being three elements to any project:

Cost
Quality
Time

You can only achieve two of the three. You can a high quality product, quickly but it will be expensive. Or you can have it within budget an delivered on time but the quality will suffer...

I would agrue that we have taken the thurd option and signed quality players (or players with high potential) at a close to zero net spend but following this principle, it will take longer to deliver.

I am now going to go and shoot myself for using the word project in a football context.

Ok quick question: Allowing obviously that they're in a new league, new team, new country etc and some are fairly young...but then considering most are very experienced for those of that age, Eriksen is an international with loads of caps and CL appearances etc, Lamela scored 15 goals for Roma (that's Roma, not Salernitana, Roma) last season, Paulinho starts for Brazil etc.....

Do you think results (ie better, more cohesive displays with more fluidity and excitement) as well as better results points wise could have been achieved more quickly?? Ie by another manager/better management?

Or do you think this situation/squad could have been given to any manager and it would still result in 2 home loses to bottom half teams in 11 games, 7th place against an easy run and turgid football with 6 goals from open play in 11 games?

 

[Pirate55]

I downloaded and watched Southampton's game against Hull (and have watched a few other games they've played this season). They actually are similar to us in a number of ways - how vigorously they press and win the ball back, how they play a fairly high line, etc, but they are so much better at it than we are lol. Not really at pressing and playing a high line because we do that well, but within that system the way they pass it, they way they run and move off the ball, the way they play the ball quickly out of their own half and counterattack, is on a different level to us.

That's what makes me think that the coach has something to do with it. Because Pochettino came to Southampton and they were leaking goals and he quickly got the defensive system working, and now they also look very good attacking as well. AVB's been here for 15 months and we've averaged about 1 goal from open play per 2 games. That's not good enough and he needs to sort it out really quickly. Pochettino's style of play and "system" seems to enable the Southampton players to be better - more than a sum of their parts, while AVB (at the moment) has our team playing as less than the sum of its parts.

Great point. And add to that there is no doubt our team is player for player much superior to Southamptons.

 

[Pirate55]

Ok quick question: Allowing obviously that they're in a new league, new team, new country etc and some are fairly young...but then considering most are very experienced for those of that age, Eriksen is an international with loads of caps and CL appearances etc, Lamela scored 15 goals for Roma (that's Roma, not Salernitana, Roma) last season, Paulinho starts for Brazil etc.....

Do you think results (ie better, more cohesive displays with more fluidity and excitement) as well as better results points wise could have been achieved more quickly?? Ie by another manager/better management?

Or do you think this situation/squad could have been given to any manager and it would still result in 2 home loses to bottom half teams in 11 games, 7th place against an easy run and turgid football with 6 goals from open play in 11 games?

That is the key question IMO.

 

[Mumorn]

Great point. And add to that there is no doubt our team is player for player much superior to Southamptons.

In the Southampton line up against Hull, how many of them were actually new to the squad over the summer by any chance? Am I right in saying other than Lovren (who's a defender anyway), Wanyama was the only other guy who was new? yet from some of the highlights I saw and from what I have seen of him this season, he looks awful, especially not the same guy that was being touted for Man Utd etc.

 

[NWND]

Look no matter how you dress it up I was drooling at the prospect of this in the summer:

..............................Lloris/Brad

Walker.........Daws/Kaboom....Verts/Vlad.......... Rose

............Sandro/Paulinho.........Dembele/Capoue

.............................Eriksen/Holtby

Lamela/Lennon.....Soldado/Ade/Defoe.......Chadli/Townsend/Sig

There has got to be a f**k up of absolutely RBS-sub-prime-debt-portfolio-circa-2007 levels to make that team so horrendously dull to watch! Don't give me 'time' - my mum could send XI of those lads out to play and get better football out of them!

 

[DMac]

Great point. And add to that there is no doubt our team is player for player much superior to Southamptons.

I think our best team is but not when AVB is picking players like Sigurdsson and leaving out ones like Lamela.

Also one of Southampton's strongest attributes is their fullbacks, who get forward and create width for the team far better than our's do (especially when Rose isn't playing). I would actually say that their back 4 is on par with our's, our central midfield is probably better but their front 4 are more effective at the moment than our's are. Not that they are better players but their 'system' enables their attack while our's restricts our attack. Very annoying situation for us.