• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Jordon Peterson

Interesting debate, I think I have a learned a bit. Im not sure where I stand exactly on the non binary debate - as I’m not sure I understand it fully. So my default is as long as no one is getting hurt - then let people be what they want to be and be nice to them.

When I have a bit of time is will ask you @braineclipse a few questions if you don’t mind? Just to expand my understanding.
 
Na all good mate, found your replies really interesting.

The extreme part is true and I think he is guilty of riding that out to make his point, I think many are guilty of that.

His best argument on it, which I do tend to agree with is the easiest way to avoid doubt is to refer to someone based on the persona they are choosing. For example if a man is dressed as a woman you are correct to refer to them as "she" and any doubt for want of a better term lies with them.

I agree. And then if they correct you, you adjust. People may have a negative reaction to bring misgendered at first, but the vast majority will accept people getting it wrong if they adjust on the future.

His opposition the the original law in Canada remains bizarre to me. IIRC a law that meant they people employed by the government, like at a university, had to use people's preferred pronouns. Seems like something that should be a common decency, codified in law because there are bigots and dingdongheads around.

Attack on free speech, example of post modern neomarxists (I still don't know who they are) and a path to all kinds of brick. I really don't get how he got from one to the others.
 
Interesting debate, I think I have a learned a bit. Im not sure where I stand exactly on the non binary debate - as I’m not sure I understand it fully. So my default is as long as no one is getting hurt - then let people be what they want to be and be nice to them.

When I have a bit of time is will ask you @braineclipse a few questions if you don’t mind? Just to expand my understanding.

Sure and cheers. If I don't respond it will be because I haven't seen it, but will try to check back if I stray away from random again.

I may not have good answers mind, but I can try.
 
Why does a minority that feels marginalised and wants inclusion, marginalise itself further by creating pronouns you have to call them by? Seems counter productive.
 
Why does a minority that feels marginalised and wants inclusion, marginalise itself further by creating pronouns you have to call them by? Seems counter productive.

This part I agree with in the larger picture of making society more inclusive. I personally don't believe that creating huge numbers of sub sections makes us more inclusive, identity politics does not work. But on the reverse do we have a right to upset people who want to identify as what they choose? Its a fine line
 
Last edited:
Why does a minority that feels marginalised and wants inclusion, marginalise itself further by creating pronouns you have to call them by? Seems counter productive.

I'm assuming this is about non binary rather than trans people.

I think the work done by the LGBTQ+ community, including introducing people to nonbinary pronouns has contributed to more understanding and inclusion. But there's a very long way to go and a lot of reactionary responses.

If you truly identified as non binary, thought both male and female categories didn't fit with your identity. Gender being a rather significant part of people's identity. Would you ever feel truly included anywhere without other pronouns? People just using him or her about you?

Should they just pretend to fit into one of the binary categories, pretend like they identified with one to get more "included" that way?
 
This part I agree with in the larger picture of making society more inclusive. I personally don't believe that creating huge numbers of sub sections makes us more inclusive, identity politics does not work. But on the reverse do we have a right to upset people who want to identify as what they choose? Its a fine line

Identity politics has been around for ages even though the term wasn't used.

It just used to be that white, male and cis people were the identities that were mostly being politically promoted. Others were marginalised, but for some reason that's not seen as "identity politics".

To me inclusion means including people that are different, accepting that there are sections or groups of people that are different in various ways. I don't believe that there are many groups that are being created, rather groups that have existed for a long time that finally are getting recognised and, to a greater extent, included.

There is a need for identity politics because we're quite a long way from true inclusion and equality, there's a need to fight for the rights of marginalised people.

Now, there are ways identity politics goes wrong, poor strategy decisions, people that take things too far. More often than that I feel that the people that criticise "identity politics" fail to offer up better solutions. And even more often than that calls for inclusiveness and equality are faced by reactionary and even downright bigotry.

I see the latter as identity politics too. Though most people I hear criticise identity politics don't include that in their criticism.

"Gay marriage threatens the sanctity of my heterosexual marriage." Just as an example. Isn't that identity politics? For some reason though identity politics is seen as an issue mostly with the left.
 
I'm assuming this is about non binary rather than trans people.

I think the work done by the LGBTQ+ community, including introducing people to nonbinary pronouns has contributed to more understanding and inclusion. But there's a very long way to go and a lot of reactionary responses.

If you truly identified as non binary, thought both male and female categories didn't fit with your identity. Gender being a rather significant part of people's identity. Would you ever feel truly included anywhere without other pronouns? People just using him or her about you?

Should they just pretend to fit into one of the binary categories, pretend like they identified with one to get more "included" that way?

I'm not even going to pretend to understand pronouns.
 
Some of these pronouns are completely unnecessary as well, here’s an example:

“Sapiosexuality means that a person is sexually attracted to highly intelligent people, so much so that they consider it to be the most important trait in a partner. It is a relatively new word that has become more popular in recent years. Both LGBTQ+ people and heterosexual people may identify as sapiosexual.“

I mean doesn’t the first sentence describe 90% of the population? Not sure why that needs a pronoun. I’m sure there are dozens of others that are not needed. Some organisations are mandating that people put their pronouns in their email signature. Not a problem with people doing it off their own back, but people should be allowed to opt out if they want to. It’s pretty meaningless if you are being told by your boss that you have to do it.
 
it doesn't cost me anything to use the labels people want applied to them, it doesn't affect me at all, it's no different to someone saying my name is John, but can you call me Jack instead

a pronoun is necessary if a person deems it so for them, I don't understand them all, I don't need to understand them all, I just need to respect peoples choice of them

just let people be what they want to be, it's a kindness with no cost
 
it doesn't cost me anything to use the labels people want applied to them, it doesn't affect me at all, it's no different to someone saying my name is John, but can you call me Jack instead

a pronoun is necessary if a person deems it so for them, I don't understand them all, I don't need to understand them all, I just need to respect peoples choice of them

just let people be what they want to be, it's a kindness with no cost

I don't care what anybody calls themselves, that is their right, it is also my right to ignore it, as long as I not insulting them i don't see the issue.
One person's rights shouldn't trump another's.
 
Some of these pronouns are completely unnecessary as well, here’s an example:

“Sapiosexuality means that a person is sexually attracted to highly intelligent people, so much so that they consider it to be the most important trait in a partner. It is a relatively new word that has become more popular in recent years. Both LGBTQ+ people and heterosexual people may identify as sapiosexual.“

I mean doesn’t the first sentence describe 90% of the population? Not sure why that needs a pronoun. I’m sure there are dozens of others that are not needed. Some organisations are mandating that people put their pronouns in their email signature. Not a problem with people doing it off their own back, but people should be allowed to opt out if they want to. It’s pretty meaningless if you are being told by your boss that you have to do it.

That's not a pronoun is it?

It's just a word to describe someone's sexual attraction and preferences. People want to talk about and understand these things and in the process new words and expressions are created.
 
That's not a pronoun is it?

It's just a word to describe someone's sexual attraction and preferences. People want to talk about and understand these things and in the process new words and expressions are created.

If you've just met a person maybe you don't want to know who they like having sex with?
 
I don't care what anybody calls themselves, that is their right, it is also my right to ignore it, as long as I not insulting them i don't see the issue.
One person's rights shouldn't trump another's.

Sure.

I think it's a good thing if people then say that actually the words I use are experienced as insulting.

Then I have the choice and freedom to either continue being insulting or to adjust.
 
I don't care what anybody calls themselves, that is their right, it is also my right to ignore it, as long as I not insulting them i don't see the issue.
One person's rights shouldn't trump another's.

completely agree

people choosing their own pronouns has zero affect on the rights of others
 
Back