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Coronavirus

Another point entirely. Underfunding , poor management etc . Matthew Syed made a good programme on this recently search it out worth a look.

But could the same not be said for many health issues that are down to people’s personal life choices. More people die from heart disease daily

Exactly, this for me, you cant place the unvaxed into a discriminative pool, would be like doing so to the millions who make bad choices with drugs, food, drink and lack of exercise.
 
I completely disagree.

As I see it. You have a jab to protect yourself and others.

You don’t have a jab to protect yourself from any negative affects of the jab.

Ergo. You are making a conscious decision to fudge off everyone else.

So yeah, you takes your chances.

But again with every day that passes its becoming clearer that the % difference in transition between uinvaxxed and vaxxed is extremely minimal so the Vaccine is to protect yourself first and foremost so therefore should be a matter of choice. As I have said numerous times, I am vaxxed to protect me, if my neighbour isnt thats up to him and I wont be judging him for it. The fact the thing is turning us into a nation of near curtain twitchers who want to pass judgement on others is not something that sits well for me
 
Lilbaz I don’t disagree with a lot of the stuff you post in this thread . We are not going to agree on vaccine mandates and lockdowns for unvaccinated. I feel it’s overreach by Governments around the world.

Yes the unvaccinated will lead to most hospitalisation and the NHS is struggling.

Another point entirely. Underfunding , poor management etc . Matthew Syed made a good programme on this recently search it out worth a look.

But could the same not be said for many health issues that are down to people’s personal life choices. More people die from heart disease daily

The only way I see and end to this is Therapeutics. Treatment being robust via that means. Again there’s more points there regards the treatments patents and money.

I find the whole thing strange and think we will look back in 20 years time and think what were we doing.

This isn't about england. Doubt boris will bring in plan b. We opened up early and started boosters early to avoid this. It's europe (and wales and scotland) that are bringing this in. Theraputics are no good if there are no hospital beds or doctors available to administer them. If ambulances are full because they can't unload patients, what happens to someone who has a heart attack? Or stroke? Or gets involved in a car accident? Or is stabbed? They won't get treatment. Nobody will come. So the death rate for everything will go up. You might aswell break out the leaches.

So governments have a choice. Lockdown everyone. Massive damage to the economy. Or lockdown the unvaccinated (who will take up most of the beds). Many of whom will get vaccinated as soon as the rules are implemented? Netherlands has chosen the former. Austria the latter.
 
But again with every day that passes its becoming clearer that the % difference in transition between uinvaxxed and vaxxed is extremely minimal so the Vaccine is to protect yourself first and foremost so therefore should be a matter of choice. As I have said numerous times, I am vaxxed to protect me, if my neighbour isnt thats up to him and I wont be judging him for it. The fact the thing is turning us into a nation of near curtain twitchers who want to pass judgement on others is not something that sits well for me

Nobody cares about how many cases there are. If they are mild or asymptomatic who gives a fudge? They care about hospitals being overrun. That is being done by the unvaccinated. If everyone was vaccinated the hospitals would have some strain but would be able to cope.

Also we're not talking about england. We are talking of austria, germany, france, singapore. Well funded healthcare systems.
 
But again with every day that passes its becoming clearer that the % difference in transition between uinvaxxed and vaxxed is extremely minimal so the Vaccine is to protect yourself first and foremost so therefore should be a matter of choice. As I have said numerous times, I am vaxxed to protect me, if my neighbour isnt thats up to him and I wont be judging him for it. The fact the thing is turning us into a nation of near curtain twitchers who want to pass judgement on others is not something that sits well for me

Right I get you. I’ve not really seen any evidence that transmission is the same for newly exposed non vaccinated individuals cf those who already have antibodies either through a jab or having had covid.

It just doesn’t sound plausible to me, but where that is true I agree that this levels the playing field and we should be looking at covid testing once again.
 
Right I get you. I’ve not really seen any evidence that transmission is the same for newly exposed non vaccinated individuals cf those who already have antibodies either through a jab or having had covid.

It just doesn’t sound plausible to me, but where that is true I agree that this levels the playing field and we should be looking at covid testing once again.

We do a million tests a day. About 500,000 of them are the daily tests. About 6 times as much percapita as the netherlands, france or germany.
 
Syptom study still showing a fall in cases today. 65,618. Amount currently infected 1,056,822.

Fall not as fast as it was though.
 
Nobody cares about how many cases there are. If they are mild or asymptomatic who gives a fudge? They care about hospitals being overrun. That is being done by the unvaccinated. If everyone was vaccinated the hospitals would have some strain but would be able to cope.

Also we're not talking about england. We are talking of austria, germany, france, singapore. Well funded healthcare systems.

Then my original point remains, hospitals would be less under strain if the country was not so obese, but we dont rightly point fingers at these people either
 
Then my original point remains, hospitals would be less under strain if the country was not so obese, but we dont rightly point fingers at these people either

Did you read the last line?

England is not bringing in vaccine passports. The amount of people in hospital in the uk is falling.

As for obese, if the hospitals do get overrun then they are on the list, with smokers for triage. They'll just get morphine, unless they are fairly young.
 
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Lilbaz I don’t disagree with a lot of the stuff you post in this thread . We are not going to agree on vaccine mandates and lockdowns for unvaccinated. I feel it’s overreach by Governments around the world.

Yes the unvaccinated will lead to most hospitalisation and the NHS is struggling.

Another point entirely. Underfunding , poor management etc . Matthew Syed made a good programme on this recently search it out worth a look.

But could the same not be said for many health issues that are down to people’s personal life choices. More people die from heart disease daily

The only way I see and end to this is Therapeutics. Treatment being robust via that means. Again there’s more points there regards the treatments patents and money.

I find the whole thing strange and think we will look back in 20 years time and think what were we doing.
Once this has passed or under control...to be consistent one would have to shine a similar light on brick food consumers, smokers etc in relation to burdening the NHS.
 
Once this has passed or under control...to be consistent one would have to shine a similar light on brick food consumers, smokers etc in relation to burdening the NHS.

They do. You have a sugar tax and tax on cigarettes that goes to paying for treatment from the nhs.

Cigarettes is £5.26 + 16.5% of the retail value is tax on a box of 20.
 
Nobody cares about how many cases there are. If they are mild or asymptomatic who gives a fudge? They care about hospitals being overrun. That is being done by the unvaccinated. If everyone was vaccinated the hospitals would have some strain but would be able to cope.

Also we're not talking about england. We are talking of austria, germany, france, singapore. Well funded healthcare systems.

Where is this notion that the unvaccinated are the ones overrunning hospitals?

When looking at these rolling England weekly reports (which cover 4 week rolling periods each time) it seems that most cases of COVID being admitted to hospital are fully vaccinated and most of those who die from covid are fully vaccinated: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surveillance-reports

Most recent report for week 45, covering weeks 41 to 44:

Total Cases admitted to hospital: 10,179. Of these:
- number who were unvaccinated: 3,313
- number who were fully vaccinated: 7,322

Total deaths (within 28 days of positive sample): 3,430. Of these:
- number who were unvaccinated: 587
- number who were fully vaccinated: 2,732

Total deaths (within 60 days of positive sample): 4,135. Of these:
- number who were unvaccinated: 703
- number who were fully vaccinated: 3,284

These are usually from tables 4 and 5 in those weekly reports.

Happy to see any counter data....
 
Did you read the last line?

England is not bringing in vaccine passports. The amount of people in hospital in the uk is falling.

As for obese, if the hospitals do get overrun then they are on the list, with smokers for triage. They'll just get morphine, unless they are fairly young.

I did but I live in the UK And so it's relevant to me and the point about people pointing fingers is still valid to the UK as it's still a live conversation happening daily
 
Where is this notion that the unvaccinated are the ones overrunning hospitals?

When looking at these rolling England weekly reports (which cover 4 week rolling periods each time) it seems that most cases of COVID being admitted to hospital are fully vaccinated and most of those who die from covid are fully vaccinated: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-surveillance-reports

Most recent report for week 45, covering weeks 41 to 44:

Total Cases admitted to hospital: 10,179. Of these:
- number who were unvaccinated: 3,313
- number who were fully vaccinated: 7,322

Total deaths (within 28 days of positive sample): 3,430. Of these:
- number who were unvaccinated: 587
- number who were fully vaccinated: 2,732

Total deaths (within 60 days of positive sample): 4,135. Of these:
- number who were unvaccinated: 703
- number who were fully vaccinated: 3,284

These are usually from tables 4 and 5 in those weekly reports.

Happy to see any counter data....

I was going by the article in the bmj that i posted a couple of pages back.

I've also said that england isn't going to use vaccine passports. We opened up early, so now everyone has been exposed and has some level of immunity. We also have boosters to top up on waning immunity (around 11 million now).
The problem is in europe.

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/sage-expert-says-uks-very-22157453
 
I was going by the article in the bmj that i posted a couple of pages back.

I've also said that england isn't going to use vaccine passports. We opened up early, so now everyone has been exposed and has some level of immunity. We also have boosters to top up on waning immunity (around 11 million now).
The problem is in europe.

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/sage-expert-says-uks-very-22157453

So do you agree that the notion that 'unvaccinated people are driving up covid hospital admissions' is not correct at least in England?
 
So do you agree that the notion that 'unvaccinated people are driving up covid hospital admissions' is not correct at least in England?

In england not any longer. Number of people in hospital with covid is falling.

Europe has 4 problems. The 3 week gap between vaccinations (rather than 3 months in the uk) gives less protection that wanes faster. They kept restrictions too long, so now with winter coming everyone in doors, low vit d they are seeing a massive peak. (Uk has had between 40-50k a day for 4 months now, they are getting all those numbers in one go). They have unvaccinated that have had no exposure so no immunity. They also are very slow at rolling out boosters.

It's a perfect storm at the worst time possible. They fudged up big time. Now they have to put in more restrictions or their health systems could buckle.
 
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