Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[SpurMeUp]

Good point. I think on balance modern science, and particularly evolution, provide enough means, motive and opportunity to explain existence and most of the other big questions. But I guess the rational mind has to work on the old 'eliminate the impossible and whatever remains, however improbable...' basis.

Personally I've moved from complete atheism to slightly more spiritually curious (but still fundamentally critical). This is because of a few recent things I've experienced and found myself able to do. I'm pretty sure its all still explainable by psychology, chemistry and biology, but I'm definitely more curious now about exploring boundaries.

Are you levitating again?

 

[DTA]

Obviously, the ability to turn empathy off at will would be a huge evolutionary step for the human race.

It seems to be (like many aspects of human character) part nature and part nurture. There's a decent chance the strange societal value we give to empathy will have the nurture part outweight the nature one.

turning empathy off in the human race is a fûcking scary thought.

 

[DTA]

You people are getting very muddled. Or perhaps, to be kinder, it's because you are trying to adopt a middle ground in the interests of board harmony.

Firstly, atheism is not a cosmological position. An atheist does not posit anything, or affirm any statement about the nature and origin of time and the universe. The atheist merely looks on with bemusement as those for whom religion is meaningful discusses something which to them seems entirely meaningless.

Secondly, some of you are confusing generalised scepticism as the starter epistemological position, adopted playfully by various philosophers with points to prove about knowledge and belief, with viable approaches to the practical business of knowing what is knowable and what is not.

without getting into a semantic battle in terms of strong atheists vs soft atheists etc etc. which is a minefield in its self. I think it would be prudent to go with the widely accepted definition/understanding of what an atheist is. Ie someone who believes there is no GHod.

I think you are confusing @scaramanga position and and @LutonSpurs proposition with agnostic Theism. Which I can assure you Scaramanga is not and o don’t think was what Luton spurs meant either.

As for my quoting Socrates comment on the “knowing” he may very well said it playfully, but is it not in its essence a fundamental truth?

someone (I forget who) said that “science is about being less wrong than we were yesterday and more wrong than we will be tomorrow “ or something like that. I take that as the fundamental SEARCH for truth And as it is a search it is continually ongoing.

So to say I know 100% there is no Creator is as preposterous a position as to say I Know 100% there is a creator.

look at quantum Physics we have no idea where that rabbit hole will lead, and the only thing certain about is it is that we don’t understand it.

 

[SpurMeUp]

The government has stepped in to counter a spiralling crisis on pig farms by allowing butchers to enter the UK on temporary visas, in the latest reversal of post-Brexit immigration policy.

Well that was all worthwhile.

 

[Lilbaz]

without getting into a semantic battle in terms of strong atheists vs soft atheists etc etc. which is a minefield in its self. I think it would be prudent to go with the widely accepted definition/understanding of what an atheist is. Ie someone who believes there is no GHod.

I think you are confusing @scaramanga position and and @LutonSpurs proposition with agnostic Theism. Which I can assure you Scaramanga is not and o don’t think was what Luton spurs meant either.

As for my quoting Socrates comment on the “knowing” he may very well said it playfully, but is it not in its essence a fundamental truth?

someone (I forget who) said that “science is about being less wrong than we were yesterday and more wrong than we will be tomorrow “ or something like that. I take that as the fundamental SEARCH for truth And as it is a search it is continually ongoing.

So to say I know 100% there is no Creator is as preposterous a position as to say I Know 100% there is a creator.

look at quantum Physics we have no idea where that rabbit hole will lead, and the only thing certain about is it is that we don’t understand it.

Difference being science says we don't know and tries to understand. Religion says i do know and tries to quell any disagreement.

 

[Lilbaz]

The government has stepped in to counter a spiralling crisis on pig farms by allowing butchers to enter the UK on temporary visas, in the latest reversal of post-Brexit immigration policy.

Well that was all worthwhile.

What brexit immigration policy is it a reversal of?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-immigration-system-what-you-need-to-know

Skilled workers
The points-based system includes a route for skilled workers who have a job offer from an approved employer sponsor.

The job you’re offered will need to be at a required skill level of RQF3 or above (equivalent to A level). You’ll also need to be able to speak English and be paid the relevant salary threshold by your sponsor. This will either be the general salary threshold of £25,600 or the going rate for your job, whichever is higher.

If you earn less than this - but no less than £20,480 - you may still be able to apply by ‘trading’ points on specific characteristics against your salary. For example, if you have a job offer in a shortage occupation or have a PhD relevant to the job.

Details of how the points system works are in the further details document.

There is no general route for employers to recruit at or near the minimum wage.

If you’re not already a licensed sponsor and you think you’ll want to sponsor migrants through the skilled worker route, you should apply now.

A shortage of butchers would make it a shortage occupation no?

 

[SpurMeUp]

What brexit immigration policy is it a reversal of?

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/new-immigration-system-what-you-need-to-know

Skilled workers
The points-based system includes a route for skilled workers who have a job offer from an approved employer sponsor.

The job you’re offered will need to be at a required skill level of RQF3 or above (equivalent to A level). You’ll also need to be able to speak English and be paid the relevant salary threshold by your sponsor. This will either be the general salary threshold of £25,600 or the going rate for your job, whichever is higher.

If you earn less than this - but no less than £20,480 - you may still be able to apply by ‘trading’ points on specific characteristics against your salary. For example, if you have a job offer in a shortage occupation or have a PhD relevant to the job.

Details of how the points system works are in the further details document.

There is no general route for employers to recruit at or near the minimum wage.

If you’re not already a licensed sponsor and you think you’ll want to sponsor migrants through the skilled worker route, you should apply now.

A shortage of butchers would make it a shortage occupation no?

Are people who chop up meat 'skilled workers'? Who isn't a skilled worker therefore?

Isn't the point we have replaced a free market system where companies could recruit without red tape, with a bureaucratic process that takes time and is less agile? That we left the EU to stop immigration only to then issue visas so we can let the same immigration back in, seems like a bit of a waste of time!

Along with the negatives of freedom of movement, we got all sorts of other things back in return. Cheaper energy, GPS satellite programme, open travel and free movement for our people so they can live and work across a continent, student exchange programmes, phone roaming etc etc etc.

 

[Lilbaz]

Are people who chop up meat 'skilled workers'? Who isn't a skilled worker therefore?

Isn't the point we have replaced a free market system where companies could recruit without red tape, with a bureaucratic process that takes time and is less agile? That we left the EU to stop immigration only to then issue visas so we can let the same immigration back in, seems like a bit of a waste of time. Along with the negatives of freedom of movement, we got all sorts of other things back in return. Cheaper energy, GPS satellite programme, open travel and free movement for our people so they can live and work across a continent, student exchange programmes, phone roaming etc etc etc.

We never left to stop immigration. We wanted control over immigration. We can let who we want in now, who is needed. If we need butchers we can issue visas. But companies will need to show that we need them. They will have to train/recruit british people first. There will not be agencies that pay people in bulgaria to get round minimum wage rules.

 

[scaramanga]

turning empathy off in the human race is a fûcking scary thought.

It will make us all better.

 

[SpurMeUp]

We never left to stop immigration. We wanted control over immigration. We can let who we want in now, who is needed. If we need butchers we can issue visas. But companies will need to show that we need them. They will have to train/recruit british people first. There will not be agencies that pay people in bulgaria to get round minimum wage rules.

Well of course we have always had control of immigration from the rest of the world - which has been the majority of immigration into the UK. We didn't curtail this, we were free to. But we didn't. What we changed is having non-red tape access to labour on our doorstep, and people who are happy to do some of the worst jobs in the UK. Many of these people return back to Europe after finishing their contract (fruit pickers etc). Having Brits do these jobs is not something to celebrate. It would signal that the UK has gone backwards. That our relatively amazing education systems have been degraded, and that our economy has regressed. That Brits aspire to better jobs and are able to do better jobs is a good thing. Would we wish to undo that?

 

[Lilbaz]

Well of course we have always had control of immigration from the rest of the world - which has been the majority of immigration into the UK. We didn't curtail this, we were free to. But we didn't. What we changed is having non-red tape access to labour on our doorstep, and people who are happy to do some of the worst jobs in the UK. Many of these people return back to Europe after finishing their contract (fruit pickers etc). Having Brits do these jobs is not something to celebrate. It would signal that the UK has gone backwards. That our relatively amazing education systems have been degraded, and that our economy has regressed. That Brits aspire to better jobs and are able to do better jobs is a good thing. Would we wish to undo that?

Wow. Yes lets be like qatar. Import cheap labour to do the scummy jobs. Pay them almost nothing. Keep them in crappy accommodation.
Or we could be more like japan and make those jobs better. Better pay, better conditions. Automation where needed. Because believe it or not there are english people that do scummy jobs in this country. At least now their wages aren't being suppressed and they will benefit.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Wow. Yes lets be like qatar. Import cheap labour to do the scummy jobs. Pay them almost nothing. Keep them in crappy accommodation.
Or we could be more like japan and make those jobs better. Better pay, better conditions. Automation where needed. Because believe it or not there are english people that do scummy jobs in this country. At least now their wages aren't being suppressed and they will benefit.

We have minimum wages and still follow EU legislation on workers' rights. Being in the EU was far from being like Qatar.

If you know people who want to cut up pigs, you could make a mint as a recruiter right now. This pro-Brexit government has introduced these visas, so I'd suggest our educated population wasn't interested in these 'scummy' jobs as you put it. Healthy pigs have been slaughtered and turned into biodiesel because of the lack of labour.

 

[Lilbaz]

Companies got round minimum wage by using agencies. The agencies would pay the person in their own country. No national insurance, no income tax.

As i said if there is a shortage and the businesses have shown they are doing their best to hire local and offer training/apprenticeships then we can issue temporary visas, which we have done.

There was always going to be teething issues, massively exacerbated by covid. But we'll get through them. Other countries manage to.

 

[DTA]

Difference being science says we don't know and tries to understand. Religion says i do know and tries to quell any disagreement.

I get what you saying and I am definitely pro science.

but i think you characterisation of religion is unfair, for example in Buddhism do you not perpetually search for enlightenment?

Even in the monolithic religions don’t you go through a journey in terms of your spiritually? Even in terms of self reflection that has a value and self discovery is incredibly powerful and difficult.

Religion is not just about Dogma

 

[scaramanga]

I get what you saying and I am definitely pro science.

but i think you characterisation of religion is unfair, for example in Buddhism do you not perpetually search for enlightenment?

Even in the monolithic religions don’t you go through a journey in terms of your spiritually? Even in terms of self reflection that has a value and self discovery is incredibly powerful and difficult.

Religion is not just about Dogma

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in Buddhism whilst one is required to search for enlightenment, the assumption that enlightenment can and does exist is absolute.

 

[DTA]

It will make us all better.

better at being cruel bruv, better about being selfish.

not sure that’s a world that you want to live in. Because even if you are the sociopath that you make yourself out to be (I know you are not at all) there would be a bigger and cleverer Sociopath that you may run into

 

[DTA]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but in Buddhism one is required to search for enlightenment, but the assumption that enlightenment can and does exist is absolute.

I really do not know enough about Buddhism to answer that.

 

[thfcsteff]

better at being cruel bruv, better about being selfish.

not sure that’s a world that you want to live in. Because even if you are the sociopath that you make yourself out to be (I know you are not at all) there would be a bigger and cleverer Sociopath that you may run into

Clearly not according to Scara!

 

[Rorschach]

better at being cruel bruv, better about being selfish.

not sure that’s a world that you want to live in. Because even if you are the sociopath that you make yourself out to be (I know you are not at all) there would be a bigger and cleverer Sociopath that you may run into

A closer diagnosis would be psychopath rather than sociopath.

 

[DTA]

A closer diagnosis would be psychopath rather than sociopath.

Don’t Psychopaths rationalise their behaviours where as Sociopaths just don’t care?

And if you just don’t care doesn’t that more mean that you are devoid of empathy, rather than someone who tries to justify their behaviour through constructed rationalisation?