Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Lilbaz]

who is they?

most paedophiles are white, should “white people” do more to weed it out?

If so… what are you doing to weed it out?

Where does colour of skin come into it? Are all muslims brown or black?

Yes we should do more. Has there been a paedophile ring that hasn't been condemned? Yes many have been covered up. Not just by white people though. We can talk of bradford or the pakistani grooming gangs?

 

[SpurMeUp]

dude… and I like you man and agree with a lot of your views, I think you are intelligent and progressive, I really do.

you said more subtle version of the Chinese education camps… you said it. It’s quoted.

the Chinese call them education camps but they are concentration camps.

how the hell can you defend that?

FIrstly, this was ONLY in the context of radical Islam. It is written in my post. Secondly, a changed version of a Chinese education camp - IS NOT - a Chinese education camp. Moreover all I was doing was discussing it. Never endorsing it. Thirdly, and I must have written it 10 times or more, I have continuously said that Chinese imprisonment of innocent people is wholly wrong.

Where is the racism? I won't say anymore. I'm out.

 

[DTA]

Yes, this is probably the best time to live as a human in terms of creature comforts, wars, medicine, etc. We are in the land of milk and honey, well if you are one of the lucky ones. And yes capitalism is a primary driver of this improvement in the human condition but it is flawed. And not just something that can be fixed by tinkering around the edge. It is a fatally flawed system that feeds off greed and the basest instincts of human nature. And more importantly at this time, it has led us to the brink.

All of it, all our progress is in many ways based on the energy derived from burning fossil fuels. Our addiction to our current lifestyle driven by the unfettered capitalism of the last decades will be the death of us, literally. We are operating outside of the boundaries the planet has set for us and capitalism cannot correct course because that is not its raison d'être.

Anyway, back to the wine.

I was also on the wine… but I run out, so now having a little whiskey before bed.

unfettered anything is bad and capitalism needs checks and balances, we actually live in a country, assuming you live in the uk where it’s a hybrid between capitalism and socialism. It’s about finding that balance that works and not throwing everything out and starting again because that was tried in the 20th century and led to millions upon millions of deaths

 

[LutonSpurs]

FIrstly, this was ONLY in the context of radical Islam. It is written in my post. Secondly, a changed version of a Chinese education camp - IS NOT - a Chinese education camp. Moreover all I was doing was discussing it. Never endorsing it. Thirdly, and I must have written it 10 times or more, I have continuously said that Chinese imprisonment of innocent people is wholly wrong.

Where is the racism? I won't say anymore. I'm out.

You could have said a changed version of concentration camps. Not Chinese. Just the general understanding of them. And then you would have sounded like an even more bigoted fool. Genuinely.

 

[DTA]

FIrstly, this was ONLY in the context of radical Islam. It is written in my post. Secondly, a changed version of a Chinese education camp - IS NOT - a Chinese education camp. Moreover all I was doing was discussing it. Never endorsing it. Thirdly, and I must have written it 10 times or more, I have continuously said that Chinese imprisonment of innocent people is wholly wrong.

Where is the racism? I won't say anymore. I'm out.

But the Chinese don’t only imprison radical islamists they just imprison Muslims… do you see why @LutonSpurs may be upset with this?

If someone said a changed version of the Nazi concentration camps… would you find that acceptable?

a changed version of the soviet gulags?

that all good to you?

 

[Lilbaz]

Lol, everyone getting outraged and offended, accusations of racism thrown about. So we can't have these discussions. Politicians avoid it like the plague. Yet wonder why our society is getting pushed more to extremes? How did farage become a thing?

Worse is to come unfortunately. Can see us doing a deal with denmark to share their refugee camp in rwanda. All the illegal migrants will be sent there. We're already in talks.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...rk-refugees-asylum-rwanda-africa-b942912.html

 

[LutonSpurs]

Lol, everyone getting outraged and offended, accusations of racism thrown about. So we can't have these discussions. Politicians avoid it like the plague. Yet wonder why our society is getting pushed more to extremes? How did farage become a thing?

Worse is to come unfortunately. Can see us doing a deal with denmark to share their refugee camp in rwanda. All the illegal migrants will be sent there. We're already in talks.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/...rk-refugees-asylum-rwanda-africa-b942912.html

We are literally having the conversation.

 

[Lilbaz]

We are literally having the conversation.

Were. I don't think @SpurMeUp is having it anymore.

 

[milo]

Where did I mention concentration camps. That has all come from others. And then you say I "hold all Muslims responsible for the actions of individual Muslims." Just complete nonsense. I am appalled by your conduct. Calling someone racist is a serious thing. Go have a look in the mirror before you attack others.

The Chinese "re-education" camps that you advocated are concentration camps where people are interned because of their faith and tortured. Have a look at the Amnesty link that I shared.

You are asking Muslims to condemn Islamist terrorism. A few years old but still true

"Here is what Muslims and Muslim organizations are expected to say: "As a Muslim, I condemn this attack and terrorism in any form."

This expectation we place on Muslims, to be absolutely clear, is Islamophobic and bigoted. The denunciation is a form of apology: an apology for Islam and for Muslims. The implication is that every Muslim is under suspicion of being sympathetic to terrorism unless he or she explicitly says otherwise. The implication is also that any crime committed by a Muslim is the responsibility of all Muslims simply by virtue of their shared religion."

https://www.vox.com/2014/12/15/7394223/muslims-condemn-charlie-hebdo
​

I didn't call you a racist, I said that you were saying something racist.

​

 

[Lilbaz]

A few years old but still true

"Here is what Muslims and Muslim organizations are expected to say: "As a Muslim, I condemn this attack and terrorism in any form."

This expectation we place on Muslims, to be absolutely clear, is Islamophobic and bigoted. The denunciation is a form of apology: an apology for Islam and for Muslims. The implication is that every Muslim is under suspicion of being sympathetic to terrorism unless he or she explicitly says otherwise. The implication is also that any crime committed by a Muslim is the responsibility of all Muslims simply by virtue of their shared religion."

https://www.vox.com/2014/12/15/7394223/muslims-condemn-charlie-hebdo​

I agree totally with that statement. I also know that many muslim leaders do come out and condemn the attacks. I know that the vast majority of muslims condemn the attacks. We are all people who just want to get by, take care of our families, work love and be loved.

But don't be surprised when @SpurMeUp question becomes a reality.

 

[DTA]

I agree totally with that statement. I also know that many muslim leaders do come out and condemn the attacks. I know that the vast majority of muslims condemn the attacks. We are all people who just want to get by, take care of our families, work love and be loved.

But don't be surprised when @SpurMeUp question becomes a reality.

concentration camps?

 

[Rorschach]

I was also on the wine… but I run out, so now having a little whiskey before bed.

unfettered anything is bad and capitalism needs checks and balances, we actually live in a country, assuming you live in the uk where it’s a hybrid between capitalism and socialism. It’s about finding that balance that works and not throwing everything out and starting again because that was tried in the 20th century and led to millions upon millions of deaths

I would agree that balance (or sustainability in my lingo) is the only way. Taking the best of what we know and creating a better system based on past experience has been the story of humanity, albeit with some ups and downs. But 'balance' is not what is happening now by any stretch of the imagination in my opinion. We have a widening gap between the top and the rest. We are in a new gilded age.

And the path we are on will lead to many many millions of deaths too. For example, without course correction 150 million deaths will be caused by air pollution alone in the next 70-80 years, 200 million climate refugees, <insert horrible other prediction here> . I could spout loads more statistics but instead, I'll just reiterate that this form of capitalism is not working.

Social democracy would be the preferred choice for most liberal thinking people I would think, but I'm not sure what the UK is anymore. Trending toward an illiberal democracy would be the way I view it now, which is beyond tragic for a country with the history it has.

If you get to the end of this pour yourself another.

 

[Lilbaz]

concentration camps?

They won't call them that. It will be refugee camp or centre or some such. What would you call australias camp in nauru or denmarks in rwanda?

I think australia calls it an immigration detention facility.

 

[scaramanga]

No. As i said i don't mind grammar schools for secondary education. Primary different pupils may need different attention. But it shouldn't be based on how much money their parents have.

I agree - private schools shouldn't only be for the rich.

That's why discounting tax paid towards education would allow far more people to spend that money where they choose on the education they believe will be best.

 

[Lilbaz]

I agree - private schools shouldn't only be for the rich.

That's why discounting tax paid towards education would allow far more people to spend that money where they choose on the education they believe will be best.

So you don't believe in the market sorting out the wheat from the chaff? You believe in subsidies?

 

[scaramanga]

correct. And this is relevant to @Lilbaz point about philosophy and @scaramanga previous points. Friedrich Nietzsche The darling of the atheists (and a brilliant mind for that matter) when he proclaimed “the death of ghod” he also said some thing like:

there will not be enough water in the world to wash away the blood because of this

And The capatalist system with all its many faults have still in part brought us here, the best time in human history to exist. Is it perfect? Fück no, and we can continue to improve but let us not throw everything away. Same with religion it played a major part in bringing us to where we are today

Religion was a useful police force before there was a proper police force.

"If you steal we'll put you in prison" was "If you steal my imaginary friend will burn you for eternity"

On the whole, it worked. Then some homophobic mysogenists decided they would add all kinds of rules about where you can and can't put your private bits. Then those enforcing those rules used that very religion to hide behind whilst they forcibly put their private bits in children.

 

[scaramanga]

Your opening comment was supporting a crime against humanity

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/p...-xinjiang-amounts-to-crimes-against-humanity/

After that you have been holding all Muslims responsible for the actions of individual Muslims. That is racist.

Religionist. Muslim isn't a race.

 

[DTA]

I would agree that balance (or sustainability in my lingo) is the only way. Taking the best of what we know and creating a better system based on past experience has been the story of humanity, albeit with some ups and downs. But 'balance' is not what is happening now by any stretch of the imagination in my opinion. We have a widening gap between the top and the rest. We are in a new gilded age.

And the path we are on will lead to many many millions of deaths too. For example, without course correction 150 million deaths will be caused by air pollution alone in the next 70-80 years, 200 million climate refugees, <insert horrible other prediction here> . I could spout loads more statistics but instead, I'll just reiterate that this form of capitalism is not working.

Social democracy would be the preferred choice for most liberal thinking people I would think, but I'm not sure what the UK is anymore. Trending toward an illiberal democracy would be the way I view it now, which is beyond tragic for a country with the history it has.

If you get to the end of this pour yourself another.

I will pour myself another and cheers… or as us Turks say yarasin (may it do you good).

I agree with a lot of what you say. The fact that humans are almost certainly causing a mass extinction is beyond shameful. Its a “sin” that we all must bare and it’s disgusting.

in terms of climate change, I’m more optimistic than you, I think that human ingenuity will find away to escape the catastrophe and like predictions of overpopulation in the 1960/70s we will innovate and ‘progress’

I agree with where you feel the uk is heading, and I’m truly saddened by it as despite being second generation I absolutely love this country and all the opportunities it has provided me, and call it my home.

 

[scaramanga]

Yes, this is probably the best time to live as a human in terms of creature comforts, wars, medicine, etc. We are in the land of milk and honey, well if you are one of the lucky ones. And yes capitalism is a primary driver of this improvement in the human condition but it is flawed. And not just something that can be fixed by tinkering around the edge. It is a fatally flawed system that feeds off greed and the basest instincts of human nature. And more importantly at this time, it has led us to the brink.

All of it, all our progress is in many ways based on the energy derived from burning fossil fuels. Our addiction to our current lifestyle driven by the unfettered capitalism of the last decades will be the death of us, literally. We are operating outside of the boundaries the planet has set for us and capitalism cannot correct course because that is not its raison d'être.

Anyway, back to the wine.

Capitalism doesnt feed off of human nature, it is human nature.

I'm done with the wine for one night so I'll take this up after I'm done practicing for the apocalypse with my son tomorrow.

 

[scaramanga]

So you don't believe in the market sorting out the wheat from the chaff? You believe in subsidies?

No, I believe in people paying the government for their form of education or having the choice to use that same money elsewhere on an education they think is better.

The problem with state education is the lack of choice and competition. Allow people to spend that where they like (as long as it's on education).