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Daniel Levy - Chairman

There's a lot for a chairman to do with the stadium and new commercial arrangements - non-football and some non-sports. Even without hindsight this would have been incredible few years where everyone in management would be tested. Levy chose to do too much and well we all hoped it would be alright but it proved otherwise.

On footballing matters we are the only club that didn't refresh effective talents - highlighting those that you list is too narrow a view, its the whole approach that includes not letting go of players who want out (eriksen), deadwood and consolidating funds instead of spreading out. In particular during that time when we would be testing the CL and with a first elevent in excellent condition, it was the best time to have gone on with a proven signing instead of speculative buys (ndombele) or ones for the future (sessegnon).

The breakdown of the working relationship between Poch and Levy, and the fixes around that - Levy is Poch's boss so is accountable for making it work. Even if it meant sacking Poch to ensure that the squad capabilities is not compromised due to "management issues".
I highlighted those players because I was responding to your comments about a spending spree and thought they were the players you were referencing.

Two points of observation:

-Not hiring a DoF during the stadium completion period.

-Spending a lot on players unproven in the PL.

Neither worked out as we wanted. Some agreed with those decisions at the time, some didn't.

We simply don't know to what extent those were Levy's decisions and to what extent that was Pochettino getting his way. Rumours at the time was that Pochettino wanted those specific players, we'll never know. Some reports that Pochettino didn't want a DoF (referenced earlier in the thread), we'll never actually know.

There's a very real possibility that Levy did what many of his critics want - delegate to the people with more knowledge about football. Give a successful manager more power. Despite that the blame is, by some, put on Levy for making those decisions. I think that's unfair.

The biggest footballing decisions Levy makes are appointments of managers (/head coaches) and directors of football (or similar). Like most he gets some wrong, he gets some right. I think his hit rate is good enough based on what can be realistically expected.
 
Yes I would celebrate the cup success.... BUT would have the mind to understand that cup finals are more like one-off wins, and equally considered our poor league form leading up to it and would expect it to continue the following season.
I agree completely.

I think the same logic should be applied to losing finals, and the benchmark for progress should rather be league positions and getting into later stages of cup competitions, qualifying for Europe.

Not because titles aren't important, but because there's a lot of random chance going into the results in individual games so it's not a great measure of how the club is doing.

There's a clear positive trend in terms of league positions during Levy's tenure. Despite Chelsea and City buying their way to the top or buying their way to staying at the top during that time.

We've come far enough that not getting CL fotball became a disappointment. I remember when getting EL/equivalent seemed like a distant dream. I remember season after season where we had little of note to even play for past February/March because we were just mid table.

Last season was a dumpster fire, we finished 7th. I remember when that was a good season. I remember when that was us just barely missing out on EL and that was disappointing because we came so close to getting where we wanted to be.

Last season was our worst league finish since 08/09. 12 years where 7th was our worst finish. The ten years preceding Levy 7th was as good as it got.

Good enough? I don't know. But certainly a lot of progress on the pitch. While at the same time completing a fantastic stadium.
 
If we chose players over infrastructure we'd still be in the old WHL now, still exposed to those bumps I mentione. Would we have trophies though, possibly. Ironically it was during our zero net spend era we came closest..finals, league title challenges, most likely as we had a manager that added loads BUT that's still evidence that spending isn't the silver bullet, furthermore, given covid etc, we have spent a large amount the last 2 years and progressed nowhere (probably due to a poor manager)...so go figure.

Where we would have been had we not invested in infrastructure is interesting to speculate about, but impossible to know.

I fail to see many clubs improving consistently without improving their revenue and infrastructure. You essentially have to maintain CL football really consistently to do so, and as we know poor spells of results happen to everyone.

I agree with you. Maybe a cup or two, but a worse position right now to compete in the future seems the most likely.
 
Yes I would celebrate the cup success.... BUT would have the mind to understand that cup finals are more like one-off wins, and equally considered our poor league form leading up to it and would expect it to continue the following season.
That's not the question that was asked. You don't think Levy has been successful on the football side.
If we'd won the Champions League (and one of two of the other finals and semis that we were in) would you consider him a success?

As for league form, our average position in the last 10 years has been our best average ever across a decade. So by your own measure of using the league as a guide, he has been a success.
 
That's not the question that was asked. You don't think Levy has been successful on the football side.
If we'd won the Champions League (and one of two of the other finals and semis that we were in) would you consider him a success?

As for league form, our average position in the last 10 years has been our best average ever across a decade. So by your own measure of using the league as a guide, he has been a success.

Our average league position for the 2010's is our best ever.
We averaged 4.3 position.
60s we averaged 5.1.
 
Not sure too many Spurs fans would swap the 1960s for the 2010s mate!

The 1980s was an average position of 7.7 and I certainly wouldn't swap that decade either.

No because we won cup finals. If we had won the finals we were in you might have swapped it.

Now is the blame of us losing in finals down to levy? On league position you'd have to say no. We've had the best team ever.
 
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No because we won cup finals. If we had won the finals we were in you might have swapped it.

Now is the blame of us losing in finals down to levy? On league position you'd have to say no. We've had the best team ever.
As I've said before many times.... Cup finals come at the end of the season when the top teams boasting bigger squads of quality and therefore less fatigued players are likely to win. So, yes, the fact that we have tended to have a big drop off in quality between our first team and reserve players is a big factor.

Our chairman has also prioritised competing in the CL over winning trophies (there was even a story that Mourinho was sacked because he wanted to rest players against Southampton to give a bigger chance of winning the League Cup). I'm not saying that making this priority call is the wrong thing to do but Pochettino was on message with the chairman here and I think that also led to us not winning a trophy or two.
 
As I've said before many times.... Cup finals come at the end of the season when the top teams boasting bigger squads of quality and therefore less fatigued players are likely to win. So, yes, the fact that we have tended to have a big drop off in quality between our first team and reserve players is a big factor.

Our chairman has also prioritised competing in the CL over winning trophies (there was even a story that Mourinho was sacked because he wanted to rest players against Southampton to give a bigger chance of winning the League Cup). I'm not saying that making this priority call is the wrong thing to do but Pochettino was on message with the chairman here and I think that also led to us not winning a trophy or two.
That argument would hold more water if we didn't lose on a number of occasions to teams with significantly worse squads than us in the later stages of the cups e.g. 2009 Fa Cup Semi against Portsmouth.
 
As I've said before many times.... Cup finals come at the end of the season when the top teams boasting bigger squads of quality and therefore less fatigued players are likely to win. So, yes, the fact that we have tended to have a big drop off in quality between our first team and reserve players is a big factor.

Our chairman has also prioritised competing in the CL over winning trophies (there was even a story that Mourinho was sacked because he wanted to rest players against Southampton to give a bigger chance of winning the League Cup). I'm not saying that making this priority call is the wrong thing to do but Pochettino was on message with the chairman here and I think that also led to us not winning a trophy or two.
Perhaps on fatigue and quality in the full squad. I fail to see how that's on Levy.

The second point I don't know man. Speculation about rumours about what may be a sensible decision. I find it hard to see how that's on Levy.
 
As I've said before many times.... Cup finals come at the end of the season when the top teams boasting bigger squads of quality and therefore less fatigued players are likely to win. So, yes, the fact that we have tended to have a big drop off in quality between our first team and reserve players is a big factor.

Our chairman has also prioritised competing in the CL over winning trophies (there was even a story that Mourinho was sacked because he wanted to rest players against Southampton to give a bigger chance of winning the League Cup). I'm not saying that making this priority call is the wrong thing to do but Pochettino was on message with the chairman here and I think that also led to us not winning a trophy or two.

I think it's worth a separate thread to dig through the 21+ QF/SF/Finals we have made and test that theory

Personally our two biggest brick the beds (when we lost PL to Leicester & CL Final) had nothing to do with squad depth.

I do remember perhaps Chelsea in one where they brought KYB & Aquero off the bench, but in 21+ it isn't purely a squad depth issue.
 
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I think it's worth a separate thread to dig through the 21+ QF/SF/Finals we have made and test that theory

Personally our two biggest brick the beds (when we lost PL to Leicester & CL Final) had nothing to do with squad depth.

I do remember perhaps Chelsea in one where they brought KYB & Aquero off the bench, but in 21+ it isn't purely a squad depth issue.
Chelsea or city?
You mean the Chelsea game where we played son left back? That was one where they left costa and hazard on the bench. We just bottled it
 
As I've said before many times.... Cup finals come at the end of the season when the top teams boasting bigger squads of quality and therefore less fatigued players are likely to win. So, yes, the fact that we have tended to have a big drop off in quality between our first team and reserve players is a big factor.

Our chairman has also prioritised competing in the CL over winning trophies (there was even a story that Mourinho was sacked because he wanted to rest players against Southampton to give a bigger chance of winning the League Cup). I'm not saying that making this priority call is the wrong thing to do but Pochettino was on message with the chairman here and I think that also led to us not winning a trophy or two.

Totally agree levy prioritises the league/cl over the domestic cups.

He has his reasons. Cl worth £100m a year. Fa cup, £2m.
 
@Robspur12 , @Bishop , @DTA, @Raziel - I've been away for a bit, and I hope you don't mind if I invite you all to continue the discussion that happened on the Nuno thread here, to keep that one on topic. :)

Firstly, @DTA - is there a real, persistent, and painful issue on antisemitism in football? Of course there is. And you're right to bring it up - I don't blame you for doing so one bit.

As a club, we have a long and painful history with that particular evil. And,in terms of the chairman - well, Levy was cited as being a recalcitrant Jew live on Talksport only a few weeks ago in the context of wanting to keep Kane, so can I in good faith be offended by the suggestion that criticism of Levy may be influenced by that undercurrent? No, I can't.

And I'm not Jewish, so it's certainly not my place to pronounce that said undercurrent doesn't exist, either.

All I can say is where I'm coming from - and I'm thankful to you both, @Robspur12 and @Bishop for making that point as you did. At its core, from the very beginning of ENIC's ownership of the club, Joe Lewis and Daniel Levy have been very clear, in their own words and in their own vision for the club, about what they are prepared to personally invest in Tottenham Hotspur Football Club - absolutely nothing, whatsoever. THFC is, for them, an absolutely no-cost endeavour - run entirely using the club's own finances, and left to sink or swim as those finances permit.

From 2011 to 2020, this is what owner financing looks like for the top six -

View attachment 12670

Feel free to look at the attached document for a clearer image, but the gist of it is - Arsenal 15m, Chelsea 559m, Liverpool 136m, Emirates Marketing Project 837m, United 297m, Spurs...

...0.

This is the sum total of what ENIC's exposure to Spurs is - 0.

So, the first point to make is that, my criticism of Levy and Lewis stems from the very nature of their involvement - they are an investment company who have no investment or connection to Spurs whatsoever, and have no interest in ever allowing such a thing. I believe that ownership model holds us back and has hindered us more than it has helped us.

The second point to note is that, when it comes to the stadium and the training ground, I've always tried to be clear that it was a binary choice for Levy - the club made money hand over fist, in keeping with the explosion of Premier League revenue in general in that time. He could direct that money into infrastructure, or players. Infrastructure is low-risk, high-reward - the perfect choice for a risk-free investment company. He chose infrastructure. All that remained was to semi-competently direct the club's own money and what we could borrow, into the stadium and training ground.

The higher-risk option was to do that while spending some of that money on players, which is what every one of our managers has desperately asked for. It is also the route that should have been taken if the club was interested in competing for trophies, which it has miserably failed at under Levy and Lewis. When they took over, we were the 4th most successful club in England. We are now 7th. The twenty years prior to Levy and Lewis had seen three FA Cups, a League Cup, a UEFA Cup and two Community Shields. The twenty years under their ownership have seen one League Cup - just one.

I believe that is because they have chosen the no-risk option every time when it comes to Spurs - the one that is absolutely guaranteed not to cost them any money. Actually fighting for trophies is too risky - rather spend the club's own money on infrastructure while hoping that our managers can work miracles. And, even in player recruitment, the historical preference has been for young players with high sell-on potential as opposed to ready-made, world-class players that could take us over the line - the sorts of players Poch wanted to see us pick, instead of random punts on youth or endless second/third/fourth choices. Sadly, he got none, and no manager has ever managed to fully convince Levy of that approach.
As usual you articulate your points very well.

But there’s something I’d like to better understand regarding Levy penny pinching. Hypothetically speaking, if Levy owned other very successful businesses and he took money out of them and invested heavily in Spurs would you still consider him cheap and penny pinching?
 
OK that clarifies our different assumptions.

To me Levy is responsible for management failings and if he did go the way of pochettinos wishes, then it was a risk he took knowing that Poch was equally inexperienced, and is still responsible for the outcome.

Just like I'd hold the ceo/owner of a business responsible should their key personnel fail to deliver and expect some scrutiny and action to prevent disruptive interventions (like overhauling the squad).

I guess some will say Levy is innocent if he does what poch wants.
I highlighted those players because I was responding to your comments about a spending spree and thought they were the players you were referencing.

Two points of observation:

-Not hiring a DoF during the stadium completion period.

-Spending a lot on players unproven in the PL.

Neither worked out as we wanted. Some agreed with those decisions at the time, some didn't.

We simply don't know to what extent those were Levy's decisions and to what extent that was Pochettino getting his way. Rumours at the time was that Pochettino wanted those specific players, we'll never know. Some reports that Pochettino didn't want a DoF (referenced earlier in the thread), we'll never actually know.

There's a very real possibility that Levy did what many of his critics want - delegate to the people with more knowledge about football. Give a successful manager more power. Despite that the blame is, by some, put on Levy for making those decisions. I think that's unfair.

The biggest footballing decisions Levy makes are appointments of managers (/head coaches) and directors of football (or similar). Like most he gets some wrong, he gets some right. I think his hit rate is good enough based on what can be realistically expected.

Sent from my SM-T865 using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
I think it's worth a separate thread to dig through the 21+ QF/SF/Finals we have made and test that theory

Personally our two biggest brick the beds (when we lost PL to Leicester & CL Final) had nothing to do with squad depth.

I do remember perhaps Chelsea in one where they brought KYB & Aquero off the bench, but in 21+ it isn't purely a squad depth issue.
Didn’t we have Winks and Sissoko as our midfield when losing the CL final?…. I’d say that says a lot about our (lack of) squad depth.
 
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