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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)
- Thread starter SpurMeUp
- Start date
LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
This brick has to stop. I'm so angry this happening. People are tossers. I'm gonna draw a line under this topic for the sake of harmony. Let's hope for an end to war driven by politicians that cost innocents lives.
dawaxman
Anthony Gardner
Right, time to draw a line under this - I've decided to write this last email from a computer (as opposed to my phone) so that I can see what I'm writing better because there are many points being raised in many separate posts and it's a pain to jump between them all on a phone
There will be no (non-rhetorical) questions from me in this post as I don't particularly wish to continue this dialogue any more - I've tried to introduce another side to a conversation, and I've achieved that. For anybody still refusing to acknowledge the wrong-doing of BOTH sides, you can argue in a box, not with me anymore.
Having looked back over 10+ pages of people's comments, I realise that there are a lot of people here who are making statements based on very, very little information.
If you want to be better educated on this, go visit Israel and the West Bank and Gaza. Wear a kippot in the West Bank and Gaza and see what happens to you, see how the civilians spit on you. Then wear ANY religious outfit you want in Israel and see how you get treated...Actually speak to Israeli families and the families of people that live in the West Bank and Gaza - they'll all tell you that they want Hamas out (unless they've been radicalised already)
Before you judge the military over-reaction of Israel, read through the history of this conflict and understand that when you quote the number of deaths over the last week, you're disregarding the terror and death toll of the last few decades. The hundreds and hundreds of Israeli lives that have been ended or ruined by suicide bombings - I posted a link for this last night - please take the time to read it - and soak it in. How would you feel if you lived in a place where suicide bombing is the 'norm'? Have any of you experienced it? If you had, you'd want your government to act, to be decisive and to not worry about some collateral damage when attempting to take out the terrorist cell creating this insane situation
I've had to respond to individual questions, because people are trying to catch me out - I have never once said that this is ONLY the fault of hamas, far from it. I got into this debate to make it clear that I think BOTH sides are doing wrong. But I get called out on how the Turks treat the Kurds and whether or not Israelis follow a Palestinian popstar! Proving that the Israeli government are bad is NOT the point I'm debating, it's that the other side is ALSO bad....lots and lots of people in the west bank and gaza have been radicalised - they want the end of Israel and the Jews. They offer up young family members for suicide attacks - and then make sure that they're front and centre on the news when they inevitably get shot for wearing 100lbs of mortars - this is war don't forget. Innocent people on both sides, bad people on both sides
When I've been attempting to debate all of this - nobody has once said "yes, I can appreciate that the Israeli government has to do something in response to the thousands of bombs being hurled in Israel's direction. I just wish there were less innocent casualties".
People keep referring back to the divine right of those people to live on that land....why? Why do people care so much about this? Look at the size of Israel as a country - look at what surrounds Israel - lots of much bigger countries, all Islamic states, all of whom have been at war with Israel at some point. If the people living in Gaza and the West Bank want peace so badly, why don't they move into one of those neighbouring countries. Is it too much for the Jews to have a tiny piece of land on this planet where they can feel safe? Is it too much for them to have a country that is 74% Jewish (and the 26% who follow other religions are treated as equals - which is not the case in the many, many Islamic states right next door)? A country that is 22 thousand km2. Is that too much? (For context, Saudi Arabia is 2 million km2; Iran is 1.6m km2; Egypt is 1m km2 - I could go on). Those pesky Jews wanting to put a line of separation up between where the suicide bombers are coming from? How dare they try to stop the terrorists from killing their people
There is no divine right to that land - when the state of Israel was declared in 1948, the Islamic countries immediately went to war with Israel, same again in 1967 - Israel won those wars somehow. If the land that was won is disputed, that's tough! Look at how war has carved countries up over thousands of years. But you all care about the 100km2 in the West Bank and Gaza...Think about the millions of displaced Jews who finally have somewhere they can call their own - those from Eastern Europe displaced by the Pogroms, those in Western Europe displaced by the Holocaust, those across the planet displaced from other persecution/racism. There are approximately 14m Jews on the planet - can they not have a home? Can they not defend it against terrorists who openly say they want the end of all Jews?
To draw this to a close, I will respond to the last set of questions I received although I think I've got them covered in the above text:
Is it palestine? If so why are there settlements. Why does the Israeli military control it? Does Israel recognise it as Palestine?
It is disputed land - you don't know who it belongs to any more than me. The Jewish settlements are people who believe it's Israel, the Arab settlements are people who believe it's not. The Israeli military built a wall to prevent the terrorist attacks happening, and it worked. That wall is also on the Egypt border with Gaza - because they don't want hamas coming into their country either. Not sure I understand your last question - Does Israel recognise it as Palestine? Do they recognise it as a source of terror and a place to defend against - yes. Do they recognise a claim to the land - no idea.
In summary - I believe that a peaceful two state solution would be ideal. That isn't possible though - people much better than you or I have thought about this for decades. Israel wants to be known for the good it does (and there is plenty of that - they've contributed to the development of medicine and technology amongst many other industries), and not for this situation, but this is not an easy to solve situation...I'd happily debate this with someone who has been to Israel, Gaza, West Bank etc - but for now, I'm going to assume that those so adamant in their Pro-Palestine views were unable to even pick it out on a map no more than 3 weeks ago. Those that hate the Israelis had no idea that there have been hundreds of suicide attacks killing or maiming thousands of them. Those who think that the Israeli military actions are disproportionate have never had to make decisions like this themselves - they've sat in their middle class homes in a safe country, and judged others based on some social media soundbites
There will be no (non-rhetorical) questions from me in this post as I don't particularly wish to continue this dialogue any more - I've tried to introduce another side to a conversation, and I've achieved that. For anybody still refusing to acknowledge the wrong-doing of BOTH sides, you can argue in a box, not with me anymore.
Having looked back over 10+ pages of people's comments, I realise that there are a lot of people here who are making statements based on very, very little information.
If you want to be better educated on this, go visit Israel and the West Bank and Gaza. Wear a kippot in the West Bank and Gaza and see what happens to you, see how the civilians spit on you. Then wear ANY religious outfit you want in Israel and see how you get treated...Actually speak to Israeli families and the families of people that live in the West Bank and Gaza - they'll all tell you that they want Hamas out (unless they've been radicalised already)
Before you judge the military over-reaction of Israel, read through the history of this conflict and understand that when you quote the number of deaths over the last week, you're disregarding the terror and death toll of the last few decades. The hundreds and hundreds of Israeli lives that have been ended or ruined by suicide bombings - I posted a link for this last night - please take the time to read it - and soak it in. How would you feel if you lived in a place where suicide bombing is the 'norm'? Have any of you experienced it? If you had, you'd want your government to act, to be decisive and to not worry about some collateral damage when attempting to take out the terrorist cell creating this insane situation
I've had to respond to individual questions, because people are trying to catch me out - I have never once said that this is ONLY the fault of hamas, far from it. I got into this debate to make it clear that I think BOTH sides are doing wrong. But I get called out on how the Turks treat the Kurds and whether or not Israelis follow a Palestinian popstar! Proving that the Israeli government are bad is NOT the point I'm debating, it's that the other side is ALSO bad....lots and lots of people in the west bank and gaza have been radicalised - they want the end of Israel and the Jews. They offer up young family members for suicide attacks - and then make sure that they're front and centre on the news when they inevitably get shot for wearing 100lbs of mortars - this is war don't forget. Innocent people on both sides, bad people on both sides
When I've been attempting to debate all of this - nobody has once said "yes, I can appreciate that the Israeli government has to do something in response to the thousands of bombs being hurled in Israel's direction. I just wish there were less innocent casualties".
People keep referring back to the divine right of those people to live on that land....why? Why do people care so much about this? Look at the size of Israel as a country - look at what surrounds Israel - lots of much bigger countries, all Islamic states, all of whom have been at war with Israel at some point. If the people living in Gaza and the West Bank want peace so badly, why don't they move into one of those neighbouring countries. Is it too much for the Jews to have a tiny piece of land on this planet where they can feel safe? Is it too much for them to have a country that is 74% Jewish (and the 26% who follow other religions are treated as equals - which is not the case in the many, many Islamic states right next door)? A country that is 22 thousand km2. Is that too much? (For context, Saudi Arabia is 2 million km2; Iran is 1.6m km2; Egypt is 1m km2 - I could go on). Those pesky Jews wanting to put a line of separation up between where the suicide bombers are coming from? How dare they try to stop the terrorists from killing their people
There is no divine right to that land - when the state of Israel was declared in 1948, the Islamic countries immediately went to war with Israel, same again in 1967 - Israel won those wars somehow. If the land that was won is disputed, that's tough! Look at how war has carved countries up over thousands of years. But you all care about the 100km2 in the West Bank and Gaza...Think about the millions of displaced Jews who finally have somewhere they can call their own - those from Eastern Europe displaced by the Pogroms, those in Western Europe displaced by the Holocaust, those across the planet displaced from other persecution/racism. There are approximately 14m Jews on the planet - can they not have a home? Can they not defend it against terrorists who openly say they want the end of all Jews?
To draw this to a close, I will respond to the last set of questions I received although I think I've got them covered in the above text:
Is it palestine? If so why are there settlements. Why does the Israeli military control it? Does Israel recognise it as Palestine?
It is disputed land - you don't know who it belongs to any more than me. The Jewish settlements are people who believe it's Israel, the Arab settlements are people who believe it's not. The Israeli military built a wall to prevent the terrorist attacks happening, and it worked. That wall is also on the Egypt border with Gaza - because they don't want hamas coming into their country either. Not sure I understand your last question - Does Israel recognise it as Palestine? Do they recognise it as a source of terror and a place to defend against - yes. Do they recognise a claim to the land - no idea.
In summary - I believe that a peaceful two state solution would be ideal. That isn't possible though - people much better than you or I have thought about this for decades. Israel wants to be known for the good it does (and there is plenty of that - they've contributed to the development of medicine and technology amongst many other industries), and not for this situation, but this is not an easy to solve situation...I'd happily debate this with someone who has been to Israel, Gaza, West Bank etc - but for now, I'm going to assume that those so adamant in their Pro-Palestine views were unable to even pick it out on a map no more than 3 weeks ago. Those that hate the Israelis had no idea that there have been hundreds of suicide attacks killing or maiming thousands of them. Those who think that the Israeli military actions are disproportionate have never had to make decisions like this themselves - they've sat in their middle class homes in a safe country, and judged others based on some social media soundbites
To do this question justice is difficult, because where do I start? It is a complicated question if you are trying to answer without bias.
I'm a Liberal so in general not a fan, but the guy is also not the villain he is made out to be in the west . nethertheless I will start with the bad and try to link somethings together and give context:
Turkey has one of the lowest press freedom ratings in the developed/developing world. A lot of that is down to Erdoğan's party or the man himself. Arresting journalist for charges that will never be brought here.
He/the AkP would and have argued that, yes they are journalists but they also committed crimes. But an example is being a member Feto terrorist organisation (I will come back to this later)
What the hell is a Feto terrorist organisation?
Right so....Fetulla gulen (spelling) is a some say liberal some say not (I don't know enough to state) Islamic preacher with huge money and world wide influence based in the US. Him (Fetulla) and Erdogan were best if buddies, and there is probably good evidence that the Gulen organisation (which had its members in all High places) helped Erdogan to power in someway. This relationship ended in 2014 (I believe). A few things happed (books could be written on it) which culminated in the coup attempt in 2016 where Erdogan actually only narrowly escaped capture by some Gulen sympathetic army generals. The public (including liberals) and the majority of the military generals protected Erdogan that night.
This coup was blamed on the Gulen movement (in fairness it almost certainly was them) perhaps with some outside help cough CiA cough... probably not the CIA as it was quite an incompetent attempt at a coup that I would have thought that if the CIA had a hand it, they would have planned it better... but maybe they are slipping
Anyway...so after coup anyone involved in the Gulen movement. Was labeled a member of the Feto terrorist organisation.
So Gulen owned newspapers were shut down and staff arrested.
And so follows a massive purge of people with links to Gulen in every part of Turkish society. Now I understand getting rid/arresting people involved in the coup but not every person who went to a Gulen school or worked for a Gulen Business was involved in the coup. So why so many arrests and why so many people out of job?
Similar things have happened with the Kurdish party and their members of Parliament when they say anything remotely in favour of the PKK. Put in prison awaiting trail for months or years.
Now the PKK are responsible for the death of around 45k Turkish citizens (mainly of Kurdish orgin), they are nationalist Marxist organisation that use suicide bombing as part of what they do. As an example They kidnap teachers that have been sent to the South East to try to educate children in that region where literacy rates (in any language) have been extremely low compared to the rest if Turkey. So basically they are a horrible terror organisation recognised as such by the EU, UK, USA and most of the world. But does that Justify the arrest of the leader of the HDP and other members of Parliament who may expressed views that some may say are pro PKK?
So what's my point in bringing up these two examples?
Well it's to demonstrate that the AKP are ready and willing to go too far in their 'fight' against hostile actors. Sure arrest people involved in the coup... but really should every single member of the gulen movement be punished? Even if they had no involvement in the coup?
Does the leader of the HDP really deserve to be in jail?
He (Erdogan) has also brought back political Islam as a force in Turkish politics. Mixing religion and politics (not a good look). And he talks of wanting raise a pouis (sp) generation. The Turkish state was founded and governed for most of its existence on a strictly secular basis.
The flip side of this, is that the strict secularism meant that women who wore headscarf or example couldn't work in government buildings or attend universities. There are many other rules that went to far against the religious rights and Erdoğan got rid of these rules, and made Turkey a more religiously tolerant place (for all religions actually)
There is a kind of divide in Turkey between the Western looking liberals/secularists/naionalsits in the major (particularly to the west) cities. Who kind of look down on the other Turks and Kurds in other parts of the country for not being quite as sophisticated as them... this I buls hit based on class and snobbery, and a lot of governments pumped money away from areas that needed it and into the major liberal cities.
Erdogan was one of the people they would have looked down upon. And in his priministership/presidency he has helped balance the wealth somewhat more evenly throughout Turkey (although obviously not perfectly).
He tried to bring Turkey closer to the EU in his early reign but the EU was not a genuine partner, so he used this to his advantage (books could be written about this as well)
Until relatively recently Turkey’s economy has been doing well under his stewardship.
I'm going to finish this now (because it's already too long) despite only scratching the surface. But before I do I just want to talk about the 4-5 million Syrian refugees his party has let into Turkey and considerable political cost to himself and financial cost to the country. No other country has come close. And he deserves respect and to be honest administration for doing it.
Just look at it from a financial perspective if it takes £100 per month (not sure of the costs) to house, feed, educate, protect etc a refugee and we take the low figure of 4million refugees that's £400m per month even if wrong by half thats still a huge cost.. That's a massive take on for any country. Yet he done it.
It's not about catching you out bruv, it's about showing inconsistencies in your arguement. In a hope that you better understand the otherside.
Who said that Hamas is not bad though? I have repeatedly said that Hamas are cu nts to target civilians which can never be justified. How much clearer do I have to be?
You love Israel and see yourself as defending it from unfair one sided attacks. But I'm trying to give you the bigger picture. And have an honest open conversation about it. I really am. And the reason I'm doing that, is because I want Israeli and Palestinians to live in peace not just for the next 20 hours or 20 days or even 20 years. I want them to live in peace for the next 2000 years. That's not going to happen on the present trajectory. And that requires change from the Israeli government mainly... because they have the power to make that change the Palestinians don't in the main.
About 20% of the population of Turkey is Kurdish in orgin I belive that its the same percentage if Arabs in Israel is that right?
The question about the Palestinian pop star is extremely relevant by the way, as were all my questions in that particular post. It's a shame you didn't answer them. especially after calling people out for not answering your questions.
Anyway dude wish you all the best. And if you want a hand to slap some anti semitic w ankers I'm sure there will be many volunteers on here to help. Myself included.
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LutonSpurs
Eric Dear
Fu*kin hell.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Above and beyond. I was expecting a two linerTo do this question justice is difficult, because where do I start? It is a complicated question if you are trying to answer without bias.
I'm a Liberal so in general not a fan, but the guy is also not the villain he is made out to be in the west . nethertheless I will start with the bad and try to link somethings together and give context:
Turkey has one of the lowest press freedom ratings in the developed/developing world. A lot of that is down to Erdoğan's party or the man himself. Arresting journalist for charges that will never be brought here.
He/the AkP would and have argued that, yes they are journalists but they also committed crimes. But an example is being a member Feto terrorist organisation (I will come back to this later)
What the hell is a Feto terrorist organisation?
Right so....Fetulla gulen (spelling) is a some say liberal some say not (I don't know enough to state) Islamic preacher with huge money and world wide influence based in the US. Him (Fetulla) and Erdogan were best if buddies, and there is probably good evidence that the Gulen organisation (which had its members in all High places) helped Erdogan to power in someway. This relationship ended in 2014 (I believe). A few things happed (books could be written on it) which culminated in the coup attempt in 2016 where Erdogan actually only narrowly escaped capture by some Gulen sympathetic army generals. The public (including liberals) and the majority of the military generals protected Erdogan that night.
This coup was blamed on the Gulen movement (in fairness it almost certainly was them) perhaps with some outside help cough CiA cough... probably not the CIA as it was quite an incompetent attempt at a coup that I would have thought that if the CIA had a hand it, they would have planned it better... but maybe they are slipping
Anyway...so after coup anyone involved in the Gulen movement. Was labeled a member of the Feto terrorist organisation.
So Gulen owned newspapers were shut down and staff arrested.
And so follows a massive purge of people with links to Gulen in every part of Turkish society. Now I understand getting rid/arresting people involved in the coup but not every person who went to a Gulen school or worked for a Gulen Business was involved in the coup. So why so many arrests and why so many people out of job?
Similar things have happened with the Kurdish party and their members of Parliament when they say anything remotely in favour of the PKK. Put in prison awaiting trail for months or years.
Now the PKK are responsible for the death of around 45k Turkish citizens (mainly of Kurdish orgin), they are nationalist Marxist organisation that use suicide bombing as part of what they do. As an example They kidnap teachers that have been sent to the South East to try to educate children in that region where literacy rates (in any language) have been extremely low compared to the rest if Turkey. So basically they are a horrible terror organisation recognised as such by the EU, UK, USA and most of the world. But does that Justify the arrest of the leader of the HDP and other members of Parliament who may expressed views that some may say are pro PKK?
So what's my point in bringing up these two examples?
Well it's to demonstrate that the AKP are ready and willing to go too far in their 'fight' against hostile actors. Sure arrest people involved in the coup... but really should every single member of the gulen movement be punished? Even if they had no involvement in the coup?
Does the leader of the HDP really deserve to be in jail?
He (Erdogan) has also brought back political Islam as a force in Turkish politics. Mixing religion and politics (not a good look). And he talks of wanting raise a pouis (sp) generation. The Turkish state was founded and governed for most of its existence on a strictly secular basis.
The flip side of this, is that the strict secularism meant that women who wore headscarf or example couldn't work in government buildings or attend universities. There are many other rules that went to far against the religious rights and Erdoğan got rid of these rules, and made Turkey a more religiously tolerant place (for all religions actually)
There is a kind of divide in Turkey between the Western looking liberals/secularists/naionalsits in the major (particularly to the west) cities. Who kind of look down on the other Turks and Kurds in other parts of the country for not being quite as sophisticated as them... this I buls hit based on class and snobbery, and a lot of governments pumped money away from areas that needed it and into the major liberal cities.
Erdogan was one of the people they would have looked down upon. And in his priministership/presidency he has helped balance the wealth somewhat more evenly throughout Turkey (although obviously not perfectly).
He tried to bring Turkey closer to the EU in his early reign but the EU was not a genuine partner, so he used this to his advantage (books could be written about this as well)
Until relatively recently Turkey’s economy has been doing well under his stewardship.
I'm going to finish this now (because it's already too long) despite only scratching the surface. But before I do I just want to talk about the 4-5 million Syrian refugees his party has let into Turkey and considerable political cost to himself and financial cost to the country. No other country has come close. And he deserves respect and to be honest administration for doing it.
Just look at it from a financial perspective if it takes £100 per month (not sure of the costs) to house, feed, educate, protect etc a refugee and we take the low figure of 4million refugees that's £400m per month even if wrong by half thats still a huge cost.. That's a massive take on for any country. Yet he done it.
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...-walks-out-of-seven-year-treaty-talks-with-eu
Very interesting read.
Very interesting read.
monkeybarry
Ian Walker
Does it make a sound when the Pope bricks in the woods?
That's quite impressive.
My son is really good at Fortnite and he's only got a KD ratio of about 4.
Fairly sure it must be his other half that is.
His other weddings weren't Catholic ceremonies.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
How does fudgeo the Clown get a Catholic blessing when he has been divorced two times? Tory entitlement.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I think it's actually a fairly recent thing that Catholics were allowed to become PM (something to do with responsibilities for choosing bishops or something?). Blair only officially 'came out' after he stood down from office, and that was only 15 odd years ago.
It's a bit different, but Prince Charles still has to pretend he's CoE and not Greek orthodox
ShipOfTheseus
Clint Dempsey
There is not and has never been any legal restriction on catholics becoming PM. The fiction remains that HM chooses bishops, so the First Lord of the Treasury’s denomination is irrelevant. It’s true that Blair stayed closeted until he left office, but his main concern - as ever - was optics.
Or, as usual, a lack of understanding from those wishing to criticise what they see as entitlement.
His previous marriages were not Catholic ones and are therefore not recognised by this particular weirdo cult.
Gilzeantoscore
Justin Edinburgh
Oh thanks for that, they really are a weird sect.