Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[dawaxman]

Nah. I am just interested in your answers to the questions I posed. Especially as you expressed an interest in the article that @JerusalemMan posted.

I don't know enough about the turk/kurd situation, so I can't comment.

 

[DTA]

I don't know enough about the turk/kurd situation, so I can't comment.

I asked questions directly related to Israel

 

[DTA]

Thanks for responding, I'm going to reply, although I'm conscious that a) this won't be formatted particularly well and b) you and others may be fed up with my stance on Derp Hopefully you'll understand a bit more about my reason for wanting to provide balance given the antisemitic backlash that is happening right now in the UK.



On the suggestion that Germany ....
No not a joke. It was Germanys crime (not a strong enough word) against the Jews of Europe they should have had to pay. German population should have been moved out of an area in Germany and Jewish people settle there. As a Jewish state.

There were plenty of open spaces in 1945 that they could have housed the few remaining Jews - dachau, buchenwald, mauthausen - I'm pretty sure that Germany wasn't the country that these people would have wanted to reside.... anyway, this is a side point




My question asking about what Israel should be doing...
The fact is that this "round" did not start with the thousands if rocket being fired in to Israel. It started with Bibi being under pressure for being a corruption... um person. So he ordered things Like steainl Palestinians homes and calling a raid on a Mosque while people are praying... totally expecting and getting a reaction... do you really believe that is a coincidence?

"They started it..." OK...

But if the response, that is being (rightly) condemned, to the thousands of rockets is wrong - what should they do instead? Serious question. What would be the acceptable response from Israel?




On to your metaphor the little annoying pri ck didn't start hitting you In the bollo cks for no reason. Stop giving a reason to punch you in the bolloc ks and I will go round with you and give him a slap if he does it again.

Before this 'round', there have been plenty of back and forth 'strikes'... this goes back decades.




I know that the response will be: "but these people are acting out of desperation, so they're only kicking in order to get what they feel is rightfully theirs" ...
Hamas are c unts. There is no justified reason for targeting civilians. But I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) even they say they would recognise Israel and 1947 boarders (that's not reasonable 1967 is though imho).

You are wrong...hamas’s charter is the end of the state of Israel full stop, and I quote: "the obliteration or dissolution of Israel", then the end of the Jews - huge amount of violent language about the Jews in the hamas charter...




So, whilst all the reasonable people (me included by the way) want a two state solution......
Israel can get rid of hamas (relatively) quicky. Just allow the the Palestinian to have a better alternative. Hamas are not in control of the west bank so what's the deal there?

No they can't... and yes hamas are in the west bank too








Bibi distraction - he is far from being a saint, far, far, far but he is no worse than almost all other leaders across the world and better than a lot of his peers in the middle East. Is he using this as a distraction technique? Possibly. Wouldn't put it past him. Would I like a leader of Israel that puts an end to the whole conflict? Yes. But as mentioned above, its not as simple as it sounds
Bibi is a lot lot worse than a most of the leaders across the world. He really is. I really dont understand why you don't see that.

Disagree, don't think we're going to resolve this one





On the dispute over jerusalem - I don't think you're going to agree with my answer but here it is - this land has been 'owned' by many different peoples over the centuries, I don't know who should 'own' it now. I'd personally prefer it if nobody owned it and everyone just lived there peacefully, but as above, that doesn't sound likely. Your point I guess is that there were a group of people living there contentedly and some other people waged a war and took the land from them... that has happened a LOT across the planet. Israel took one square mile of land and the world is in uproar. Why is that? What is the affinity to the previous residents? I'd understand if you lived there or a member of your family, but I'm guessing that's not the case. For example, do you care that my great- grandparents generation were forcibly removed from Poland & Russia (the pogroms (see link)- this is not just about the nazis remember)? Should we be given back that land?
Yeah I care what happened to your great grandparents. I would care even more if it was happening today. Where did they go to by the way?
And yes if there is proof of ownership you should be given back land

The pogroms forced Jews from Eastern Europe to Western Europe, North America and South America.
What do you mean proof of ownership of land? This is my point... should they have a receipt or something? They lived there, were forcibly removed and nobody that was unrelated to it directly batted an eyelid. Why would they? It was just a bunch of dirty Jews being moved along....





What do I think of the attack of the Mosque on the holiest night for the Muslims? Terrible, disgusting but in the context of what is happening I'm guessing (I could be wrong), that there was a reason for this and it wasn't just "let's bomb some praying Muslims for bricks and giggles". Whether it be that hamas were hiding in the Mosque or whether there was intelligence that there was something being planned or executed in there at that moment I don't know. Either way, it was wrong, of course - but the question has to come with a bit of context.
You talk about context but then fill your answer with supposition WTF?

Not supposition... why would the Israeli military have attacked the Mosque in your opinion? If they wanted to randomly kill civilians, then I'd argue they could have killed a lot more people... they were clearly trying to remove a non-civilian target





Am I right wing? Nope, far from it. I hate war, I hate fighting, I hate capitalism and I'm in fact a socialist at heart. But I've been to Israel many times, and from what i know, this is not about the powerful dictator keeping the poor people in their place. It's about protecting themselves from the terrorists that want to wipe them off the face of the planet. If this could be ended tomorrow and hamas (the terrorist cell) were wiped out,
Again this is not just about hamas is it. hamas is not in control of people in the west bank is it? Why can't the people in the west bank vote for those who control the land, ie ISRAEL? and if Israel is not in control of the west bank (it is) then why is it building settlements there? I wouldnreally like you to answer that one

Hamas IS in the west bank but...The settlements are indefensible... its an attempt to undermine the people living there. This is the non-violent approach, as opposed to what is happening in gaza. I get why this is viewed poorly, but to be frank, this has been going on for a long time, why do people only care now?




Do you think that the present Israel government is far right? If not, why not? I think that the Israeli government are clams, but they are necessary clams. If they weren't, Israel would be gone and I would be witnessing the beginning of another attempt to wipe Jews off the face of the planet - see the above link to the Pogroms or look at the manifestos of hamas or the other terrorist cells operating in the middle East
I just disagree with Derp I believe the people of Israel deserve a better government and better chance for peace.


I would love for there to be peace, but conceding land is sadly not the answer. People around the world should be rallying against hamas, and isis, and hezbollah, and Al qaeda - wipe them out and there can be peace in the middle East. Give up a tiny bit of land in Israel and the war will continue, just slightly nearer to the final solution...

Would you like me to reply to your answers here?

Regardless One question of I may? You say that you are pro two state solution but you also say that you won't give land for peace. How do those two positions sit with each other?

Out of interest Do you think I'm antisemitic?

 

[AuroRaman]

Thank you.

For the sake of balance and for a clear demonstration that I am more than willing to hand criticism to Turkey.

For a long time the Kurdish population of Turkey were called Moutain Turks and their Kudish identity squashed. The reason for this are complex (somewhat based on the French system of national identity which was adopted by the early Republic and distorted mainly by junta governments... not a good look). But there is little doubt that this was an attempt of Turkfication of the Kurdish Population.

For a long time the Kurdish Language was banned in Turkish institutions and broadcasting. I belive this ceased 30 years ago ( I may be wrong) today as I mentioned there is state funded Kurdish language TV and radio station. In the South East there is Kurdish and Turkish road signs etc. But there are still problems (not sure how widepread) with acces to translaters in courts etc.

Turkey has arrested the leader of the HDP (the main Kurdish party in Turksih Parliament). He is still in jail. The Turkish government say that he incited violence by calling Kurdish people to the streets. He says he was calling for protests not violence. In fairness the AKP arrest Turks as well for sometimes flimsy excuses (like I said not a fan of the AKP) so not sure that's a racial issue.

There are some obviously racist Turks as well who look down on the Kurdish population. Just like any population.

I mentioned the MHP (nationalist Turkish party) calling the Kurdish population brothers. Buy being what they re (nationalist) I'm sure although I have no examples) they have also said other offensive things.

There is obviously more, including what happend dersim 90 years ago (I think). Also the state sponsored militias in the 80s shameful events.

I'm happy to elaborate if anyone is interested.

I lived in Istanbul in the early 90’s. Although I was young I remember PKK being all over the news due to fighting in the South-eastern region and bombings. The news obviously depicted Kurdish people in a different light. I had no idea things had reached the point as you’ve described now.

As an aside, Istanbul; what a city.

 

[dawaxman]

I asked questions directly related to Israel

OK, I'll have a crack but I don't want to create another mega post so I'll keep my answers short:

Questions about politics and democracy - do you know about the government that ruled or rules palestine? Know much about the plo or abbas or arafat? If you did that would help you understand that one...

Questions about treating the civilians like humans, brothers etc - yes this happens in Israel. A lot. Look it up.

Question about a famous singer - fudge knows, what does this matter?!

Question about media - "There are over 10 different languages in the Israeli media,[1] with Hebrew as the predominant one. Press in Arabic caters to the Arab citizens of Israel, with readers from areas including those governed by the Palestinian National Authority."


Questions about why the people in the west bank and gaza don't like Israelis - they are being brainwashed to hate the Jews. Look at how they are educating the children

 

[DTA]

I lived in Istanbul in the early 90’s. Although I was young I remember PKK being all over the news due to fighting in the South-eastern region and bombings. The news obviously depicted Kurdish people in a different light. I had no idea things had reached the point as you’ve described now.

As an aside, Istanbul; what a city.

Istanbul is amazing my second city behind London. Absolutely love it.

In terms of what I wrote in the specific post you quoted. Most of that happened in the past (20 -30 - 90 years ago) apart from the leader of the HdP'S arrest which is happening now

 

[DTA]

OK, I'll have a crack but I don't want to create another mega post so I'll keep my answers short:

Questions about politics and democracy - do you know about the government that ruled or rules palestine? Know much about the plo or abbas or arafat? If you did that would help you understand that one...

Questions about treating the civilians like humans, brothers etc - yes this happens in Israel. A lot. Look it up.

Question about a famous singer - fudge knows, what does this matter?!

Question about media - "There are over 10 different languages in the Israeli media,[1] with Hebrew as the predominant one. Press in Arabic caters to the Arab citizens of Israel, with readers from areas including those governed by the Palestinian National Authority."


Questions about why the people in the west bank and gaza don't like Israelis - they are being brainwashed to hate the Jews. Look at how they are educating the children

That's not answering my questions at all. I'm sorry but that is really poor.

I'm trying to have a proper conversation, I really am. Take your time and answer my questions one by one. Thank you.

 

[dawaxman]

Would you like me to reply to your answers here?

Regardless One question of I may? You say that you are pro two state solution but you also say that you won't give land for peace. How do those two positions sit with each other?

Out of interest Do you think I'm antisemitic?

I am pro-peace but I sadly don't see it being possible. Giving that bit of land will not achieve a peaceful two state solution. Feel like I'm repeating myself here... its not as easy as you and I agreeing to share the land and everyone walks away and lives in peace....

Do I think you're antisemitic? I don't know you

Do I question why people care so deeply about this particular conflict and wonder whether the driving force behind the condemnation is that its Jews on one side, yep! I'm not going to go down the same line again, but where were the protests about the other conflicts? Why is a military action in Israel causing people in the UK to get so riled up that they need to head to nw London and hold up palestine flags in predominantly Jewish neighbourhoods? What is the association to a country that most people couldn't pick out on a map? A country that most people wouldn't know about if it was a different country attacking it

 

[dawaxman]

Would you like me to reply to your answers here?

Regardless One question of I may? You say that you are pro two state solution but you also say that you won't give land for peace. How do those two positions sit with each other?

Out of interest Do you think I'm antisemitic?

Oh and yes please, do answer here. I've had to cut some of the text out of the post as it exceeded character limits but I think I've kept the context, so answers should still make sense

 

[DTA]

Oh and yes please, do answer here. I've had to cut some of the text out of the post as it exceeded character limits but I think I've kept the context, so answers should still make sense

I will answer of course. But please answer my previous questions one by one.

 

[dawaxman]

That's not answering my questions at all. I'm sorry but that is really poor.

I'm trying to have a proper conversation, I really am. Take your time and answer my questions one by one. Thank you.

Apologies, its late and I'm tired. Both because its late and because I've been receiving countless messages from friends and family who are sending me pictures and videos of antisemitic attacks in this country, in this city and I'm having to explain to people on this message board that hating the Israeli military actions, which need a huge amount of education to get the FULL context, and talking about it like they know what the fudge they're going on about when they've probably never been near gaza or the west bank. They've never seen a miklut, or the devastation of a suicide bomber or the countless other atrocities that hamas have wreaked on the country of Israel, they've not seen the twisting of the truth whereby a hamas militant fires a gun from a school and then picks up a school child by the head to hide behind them, they've not seen any of this, but they have gone and bought a flag and now have an opinion.... sorry, I'm just too tired

 

[dawaxman]

If you're not an antisemite by the way, are you anti-terrorist? Are you anti-hamas? Do you concede that they are at least partly to blame for the hundreds of people being killed in gaza?

 

[dawaxman]

I wrote this the other day, thought it might help sum up how I feel:

I love Israel

I love that there are people there of all religions, and we all shop together, stand together, relax together

I've been in Israel during Islamic holidays and spent the day in the company of people celebrating

I've stayed with the Bedouins in their camps

I've worked on a Kibbutz

I've been in Israel many times during Yom Hazikaron - when the siren goes off and the whole country stops, people get out of their cars in the middle of the motorways, to observe a minutes silence for those killed in conflict

I've been in Israel during Yom Hashoah

I've visited Yad Vashem

I've grown used to walking in and out of shopping malls and having my pockets checked; my wife and mother having their handbags checked for IEDs

I have known what IED stands for since I was a child

I have seen soldiers walking the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with guns - there to protect the civilians. I don't flinch when I see guns now - I'm used to it

I feel a huge affinity to the country

I've been in hundreds of Israeli homes - all of which have a Miklut - a windowless safe room to go to when the bombs come

I've seen the Iron Dome in action

I've been near the border of Israel and Gaza, I've been near the border of the West Bank, I've been near the parts of Jerusalem that it's not safe to go

All of these places - if I went too far, I'd be killed for my religion

The people in these places hate me

My parents' grandparents were part of the pogroms

I've been the victim of anti-semitism many times and I've witnessed anti-semitism thousands of times - in this country

I volunteer for the CST - an organisation that has been set up to keep Jews safe in this country. I do it because it's needed, and it's needed because of the misinformation that has been spread from various people throughout the centuries.

I've had to intervene and protect my fellow Jews numerous times over the years when they've been verbally or physically attacked. Their religious attire mocked, their clothes spat on, their synagogues desecrated

My brother was handed leaflets about Combat18 when he was at school, at 11 years old

I've been called names as a joke, as a form of abuse, as a way to make me feel different

It's not OK, but for some reason, we're fair game

I don't often tell people I'm Jewish, because I hate the face that people pull, or the intake of breath, or the visible reassessment in attitudes that I have to witness





Although I'm English, Israel is my home - the only place where I can be Jewish and proud

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I wrote this the other day, thought it might help sum up how I feel:

I love Israel

I love that there are people there of all religions, and we all shop together, stand together, relax together

I've been in Israel during Islamic holidays and spent the day in the company of people celebrating

I've stayed with the Bedouins in their camps

I've worked on a Kibbutz

I've been in Israel many times during Yom Hazikaron - when the siren goes off and the whole country stops, people get out of their cars in the middle of the motorways, to observe a minutes silence for those killed in conflict

I've been in Israel during Yom Hashoah

I've visited Yad Vashem

I've grown used to walking in and out of shopping malls and having my pockets checked; my wife and mother having their handbags checked for IEDs

I have known what IED stands for since I was a child

I have seen soldiers walking the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem with guns - there to protect the civilians. I don't flinch when I see guns now - I'm used to it

I feel a huge affinity to the country

I've been in hundreds of Israeli homes - all of which have a Miklut - a windowless safe room to go to when the bombs come

I've seen the Iron Dome in action

I've been near the border of Israel and Gaza, I've been near the border of the West Bank, I've been near the parts of Jerusalem that it's not safe to go

All of these places - if I went too far, I'd be killed for my religion

The people in these places hate me

My parents' grandparents were part of the pogroms

I've been the victim of anti-semitism many times and I've witnessed anti-semitism thousands of times - in this country

I volunteer for the CST - an organisation that has been set up to keep Jews safe in this country. I do it because it's needed, and it's needed because of the misinformation that has been spread from various people throughout the centuries.

I've had to intervene and protect my fellow Jews numerous times over the years when they've been verbally or physically attacked. Their religious attire mocked, their clothes spat on, their synagogues desecrated

My brother was handed leaflets about Combat18 when he was at school, at 11 years old

I've been called names as a joke, as a form of abuse, as a way to make me feel different

It's not OK, but for some reason, we're fair game

I don't often tell people I'm Jewish, because I hate the face that people pull, or the intake of breath, or the visible reassessment in attitudes that I have to witness





Although I'm English, Israel is my home - the only place where I can be Jewish and proud

Good luck to you.


Still think Israel is in the wrong on this issue.

 

[dawaxman]

Good luck to you.


Still think Israel is in the wrong on this issue.

Did you think that palestine was wrong in these issues:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

Were you even aware of it? There weren't any protests that I recall in the UK or on this message board

 

[DTA]

If you're not an antisemite by the way, are you anti-terrorist? Are you anti-hamas? Do you concede that they are at least partly to blame for the hundreds of people being killed in gaza?

That is interesting that you would even think that I may be anti semitic.

Bruv I don't know what to say to that at all. Like I have said before (and again this is a massive generalisation, so forgive me) I am actually more pro Jew then I am pro Arab. You may not believe me but thats the truth.

What do you say to the many Jewish people that are against what Israel are doing?

In answer to you question. I have absolutely no love for Hamas at all. Their reason for being is the conflict with Israel. They would be getting next to zero support at all if the Palestinians had a proper state and they were still attacking Israel. I would 100% be on the other side of this arguement if that was the case.

But again... the west bank... Israel controls it so why can't Palestinians there vote for Israeli represention

Do you see how wrong that is?

 

[dawaxman]

That is interesting that you would even think that I may be anti semitic.

Bruv I don't know what to say to that at all. Like I have said before (and again this is a massive generalisation, so forgive me) I am actually more pro Jew then I am pro Arab. You may not believe me but thats the truth.

What do you say to the many Jewish people that are against what Israel are doing?

In answer to you question. I have absolutely no love for Hamas at all. Their reason for being is the conflict with Israel. They would be getting next to zero support at all if the Palestinians had a proper state and they were still attacking Israel. I would 400% be on the other side of this arguement if that was the case.

But again... the west bank... Israel controls it so why can't Palestinians there vote for Israeli represention

Do you see how wrong that is?

Don't know a single jew that is as one-sided as people on this message board are making it out to be.

What does Israel control in the west bank? Why should they have voting powers for a different country? Either its palestine or it isn't?

 

[DTA]

Apologies, its late and I'm tired. Both because its late and because I've been receiving countless messages from friends and family who are sending me pictures and videos of antisemitic attacks in this country, in this city and I'm having to explain to people on this message board that hating the Israeli military actions, which need a huge amount of education to get the FULL context, and talking about it like they know what the fudge they're going on about when they've probably never been near gaza or the west bank. They've never seen a miklut, or the devastation of a suicide bomber or the countless other atrocities that hamas have wreaked on the country of Israel, they've not seen the twisting of the truth whereby a hamas militant fires a gun from a school and then picks up a school child by the head to hide behind them, they've not seen any of this, but they have gone and bought a flag and now have an opinion.... sorry, I'm just too tired

It is late. I should probably be asleep as well. But 30 minutes later you are still posting on this tread. But not answering my questions.

Don't take this the wrong way. But take your time answer them tomorrow If you like. But I would be interested in your answers one by one if possible please. Don't avoid them please. That would be disingenuous.

In terms of the the antisemitic abuse you have experienced. I really am sorry for that. Belive it or not I always when people spout antisemitic $hit...always call them out... always.

 

[DTA]

Don't know a single jew that is as one-sided as people on this message board are making it out to be.

What does Israel control in the west bank? Why should they have voting powers for a different country? Either its palestine or it isn't?

Ok now we are getting somewhere. Is it palestine? If so why are there settlements. Why does the Israeli military control it? Does Israel recognise it as Palestine?

Please don't avoid these questions, that really would be disingenuous.

 

[AuroRaman]

If you're not an antisemite by the way, are you anti-terrorist? Are you anti-hamas? Do you concede that they are at least partly to blame for the hundreds of people being killed in gaza?

No-one has said otherwise in this discussion. In fact posters have directly called out Hamas’ actions. For someone who’s demanding people see both sides, you’re being very one-sided and disingenuous.