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European Super League - Dead on arrival

Finney Is Back said:
At least the two coefficient places have something of a meritocracy about them.... I mean at least a club has to earn those coefficient points. Yes it is hard to break into the elite to be able to earn them, but at least it is possible (as we ourselves have proved over the last 10 years). In the ESL format it becomes impossible.
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I’m definitely not making a case for it and not sure it was intentional but by proposing something worse it has now made the co efficient palatable!

We stand to benefit from it but finishing lower in your domestic league to qualify for a higher tournament than the team above you, where you can earn more co efficient points than them is a very smart way of protecting the status quo!

The next iteration will probably include something similar, maybe with a 2nd ESL division where the winner can go into the 1st division for the following season regardless of their domestic league place to throw a few more crumbs to the rest of the G20.
 
MKSpur said:
I’m definitely not making a case for it and not sure it was intentional but by proposing something worse it has now made the co efficient palatable!

We stand to benefit from it but finishing lower in your domestic league to qualify for a higher tournament than the team above you, where you can earn more co efficient points than them is a very smart way of protecting the status quo!

The next iteration will probably include something similar, maybe with a 2nd ESL division where the winner can go into the 1st division for the following season regardless of their domestic league place to throw a few more crumbs to the rest of the G20.
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Perhaps yes. I know the new rules are to come in in 2025. Is there a set period for how long they will last or can they be changed whenever UEFA want? I foresee the 2 co-efficient places becoming 4 reasonably quickly and then staying there/growing depending on whether this is enough to see all of the ESL clubs in the CL.
 
Finney Is Back said:
The only coherent argument against it (that I also agreed with) is the fact that the tournament had 75% ever present participants by birth right and only 25% participants by way of meritocracy. That then results in the 75% birth right participants having a huge level of income compared to every other club in European football, thus at a huge advantage in terms of winning everything in their domestic leagues, with the thousands of other clubs around Europe having no way to ever change the status quo.
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ok I get that (although in our case it meant we would be able to compete with the doped clubs in the EPL), it was all the faux outrage that it would kill grass roots football and signal the the end of the EPL that I didn't understand.
 
NoLimits01 said:
ok I get that (although in our case it meant we would be able to compete with the doped clubs in the EPL), it was all the faux outrage that it would kill grass roots football and signal the the end of the EPL that I didn't understand.
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Even the faux outrage against the ever present is flimflam

- We are in the FA Cup and League Cup every year, we don't need to "qualify" for it
- ESL teams were not stopping anyone from participating in any UEFA competition

All that was proposed was 15 clubs wanted to build a new cup competition for themselves (as a fudging private business they are entitled to), fund it themselves and run it themselves while not leaving their domestic leagues (that would be impactful) and one of their rules was (like PL clubs play in FA/League Cup) the 15 play every year.

And I get to listen to how the collapse of ESL has saved the English game from the same asshats who are going on about how Pep brought soul to City and how amazing and once in a lifetime his taking City to CL final is ..
 
Raziel said:
Even the faux outrage against the ever present is flimflam

- We are in the FA Cup and League Cup every year, we don't need to "qualify" for it
- ESL teams were not stopping anyone from participating in any UEFA competition

All that was proposed was 15 clubs wanted to build a new cup competition for themselves (as a fudging private business they are entitled to), fund it themselves and run it themselves while not leaving their domestic leagues (that would be impactful) and one of their rules was (like PL clubs play in FA/League Cup) the 15 play every year.

And I get to listen to how the collapse of ESL has saved the English game from the same asshats who are going on about how Pep brought soul to City and how amazing and once in a lifetime his taking City to CL final is ..
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Not true. We have qualified for the League Cup via being in the top 4 divisions in English football. If we were to be relegated to the conference then we would no longer 'qualify' for this competition. Any team that is promoted to the 4th tier of English football qualifies to play in next season's competition.
We have qualified for the FA Cup via being in top 10 divisions in English football. If we were to somehow drop below level 6 of non league football then we would no longer qualify to play in the FA Cup.
 
Finney Is Back said:
Not true. We have qualified for the League Cup via being in the top 4 divisions in English football. If we were to be relegated to the conference then we would no longer 'qualify' for this competition. Any team that is promoted to the 4th tier of English football qualifies to play in next season's competition.
We have qualified for the FA Cup via being in top 10 divisions in English football. If we were to somehow drop below level 6 of non league football then we would no longer qualify to play in the FA Cup.
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And the ESL clubs could say they qualify by virtue of being in the top 20 richest clubs in the world

One arbitrary rule is no different from another
 
I would have some sympathy with the rent a mouths who scream at the outrage and betrayal of the football family and tradition if they weren't tied to the media who have systematically undermined all but a few clubs and have brainwashed the youth of the country to follow these few and ignore their local clubs, you cant go round a major city or town in this country without seeing children and simple minded adults wearing United, Liverpool shirts rather than their local team.
 
K.D.D.D.D.Soc said:
I would have some sympathy with the rent a mouths who scream at the outrage and betrayal of the football family and tradition if they weren't tied to the media who have systematically undermined all but a few clubs and have brainwashed the youth of the country to follow these few and ignore their local clubs, you cant go round a major city or town in this country without seeing children and simple minded adults wearing United, Liverpool shirts rather than their local team.
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And the absolute lack of any questioning of the success of City & Chelsea, they are actually praised for it ..
 
Raziel said:
And the ESL clubs could say they qualify by virtue of being in the top 20 richest clubs in the world

One arbitrary rule is no different from another
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I suspect (hope) that you don't truly feel this way and are just trying to cling on to an argument. However I will indulge you anyway....

Yes, they 'qualify' by virtue of being in the top 20 richest clubs in the World.... but from that period on a club becoming richer than one of those clubs doesn't replace them. The 'arbitrary' rules to play in the other competitions do not lock teams in/out and any team can qualify on merit via moving up the football pyramid.
 
Finney Is Back said:
I suspect (hope) that you don't truly feel this way and are just trying to cling on to an argument. However I will indulge you anyway....

Yes, they 'qualify' by virtue of being in the top 20 richest clubs in the World.... but from that period on a club becoming richer than one of those clubs doesn't replace them. The 'arbitrary' rules to play in the other competitions do not lock teams in/out and any team can qualify on merit via moving up the football pyramid.
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It's arbitrary because in both cases the "qualification" is pretty much set. You create a competition, you set the rules, you make the rules in a way that benefits the teams/people you want to succeed (like seeding)

All this shows is the illusion of fairness is more important to people than actual fairness, e.g. "in theory Bayern could not qualify for CL, so that fine, in reality they fudge over every other club in their league that even looks like putting a side together"
 
Raziel said:
It's arbitrary because in both cases the "qualification" is pretty much set. You create a competition, you set the rules, you make the rules in a way that benefits the teams/people you want to succeed (like seeding)

All this shows is the illusion of fairness is more important to people than actual fairness, e.g. "in theory Bayern could not qualify for CL, so that fine, in reality they fudge over every other club in their league that even looks like putting a side together"
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Not at all. In both of the non ESL competitions that you mentioned absolutely any club in the English football pyramid can work their way into that competition through good performance just as any club currently in the competition could find themselves no longer playing in the competition through poor performance. There is no illusion. Get into the top 4 levels of the English league and you can play in the league cup, elevate yourself to the top level and you enter the competition at a later stage, get into Europe and you enter the competition at a later stage. Any club that drops down from Europe or the PL no longer goes in at that later stage, somebody else does instead, drop out of the football league altogether and you no longer qualify for the competition, the teams promoted from the conference instead take your place. That is a pure meritocracy, the exact opposite of what the ESL was going to be.
 
Denmark Spur said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1390728762023682050
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Don't get me wrong i'm against the esl but i'm not sure we actually broke any rules. Yes there is 9l that says teams can't enter another competition eithout approval. But had we actually entered it? We showed intent and spent money to set it up. But there was no start date. There wasn't even 20 teams. In the announcement made they said they would talk to uefa, the pl etc... to make arrangements.

Really not sure any punishment would be upheld if it went to court. Especially as we weren't leaving the prem.
 
NoLimits01 said:
ok I get that (although in our case it meant we would be able to compete with the doped clubs in the EPL), it was all the faux outrage that it would kill grass roots football and signal the the end of the EPL that I didn't understand.
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What bits did you understand?
 
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