Next Manager?

[parklane1]

Why is it an issue being critical of Spurs lack of trophies? We like to talk as if we are dining at the top table, this forum has constantly talked down the likes of Liverpool, Arsenal etc and laughed at them when we for the first time ever started being good enough to qualify for the CL and they were struggling in the league as if we had reached the holy ground. But the one thing all the actual big clubs do is win trophies, and until we do we are not going to be considered one of the true big boys like it or not....

Its a sad thing to have to admit but you are spot on.

 

[Raziel]

Just to add to the debate about the link between being a "big club" and winning trophies, it is trophies like the PL and CL trophies that make people take the " big clubs" seriously.

One point of view is that winning the smaller trophies will help us to win the bigger trophies. However, it doesn't really give you any tangible benefit linked to moving your club on to the next level. Plus if you have a small squad it is difficult to do this while also trying to compete at the next level. We know from our recent history, winning the League Cup has not moved us on like we had hoped. Mainly because it didn't enable us to bring in more money or hang on to our key players.

Whereas prioritising the big trophies even if you do not win them means more money which mean higher wages, more net spend, better players. That's why managers like Poch do prioritise the Champions League. Plus the lower placed clubs prioritise staying in the PL.

It controls the narrative, if we won two trophies this year, it would easily buy 4-5 years of being able to build the next step without constantly deflecting, it would calm down the nonsense media that constantly says "player x needs to leave Spurs to get trophies"

Truth is, we need to do both and that's a bitch to balance

 

[parklane1]

ALL trophys matter ( just ask the players who win them), of course some are bigger then others but winning something helps good players want more.

 

[billyiddo]

I never said I didn’t agree or understand the need to prioritise, I’m just saying I understand the criticism and no one said anything about multiple trophies - fact is that we haven’t won a single one for years, how many other ‘big teams’ boast such a lean period? So until we do it’s a valid criticism.

There also isn’t a single big team who at some point don’t fail to qualify for the CL, so there was always going to be a period where this happened to us so if you haven’t won a trophy or two to fall back on then you really are nothing more than also rans....

We're not a big team though, look at what our net transfer spend and wage bill was over this period - when we start acting like a big club off the field we can start putting those expectations in place.

Now that we're in the stadium and can start backing the managers with a better net spend and wage budget we can start to raise the bar

Edit: I brought up multiple fronts because you need to have a deep enough squad to challenge across the board in order to win the smaller trophies, unless you're happy to be a one off winner every ten years or so

 

[Robspur12]

ALL trophys matter ( just ask the players who win them), of course some are bigger then others but winning something helps good players want more.

Look this is a chicken and egg argument. Big Players want to play for big, successful clubs that compete in most prestigious tournaments and pay the highest wages.

Winning League Cups and FA cups does not make you a big successful club. It's a great day out and the fans including me, love it but it isnt about building sustainable success. Look at Arsenal they have won what 3 FA Cups between 2010-2020 and are still languishing below us in the league. So savvy managers will prioritise competitions that build long term success rather than short term glory. @Raziel, Arteta won the FA cup last season, it won him lots of good will which then evaporated about 5 games into this season when it was clear that even with that win, Arsenal are no better in the league or cups than last season. No one fears Arsenal or seriously believes they are going to be competing for big trophies. People did take both Arsenal and Spurs seriously though when they were competing in the Champions League and finishing in the top 4.

It will not save Arteta from the sack imho and it will mean that he will be in post for less time than Poch despite being a "winner". The same will apply to Jose, despite his credentials, if he only wins the Carabao Cup and doesn't qualify for the champs league. It also worries me what our top players will think the longer we remain out of the Champions League. I would forego a win in the Carabao to win the Europa League tbh. I think all our eggs should be in that basket once we reach 40 points. If we are eliminated from the EL Jose is gone imho.

 

[Raziel]

Look this is a chicken and egg argument. Big Players want to play for big, successful clubs that compete in most prestigious tournaments and pay the highest wages.

Winning League Cups and FA cups does not make you a big successful club. It's a great day out and the fans including me, love it but it isnt about building sustainable success. Look at Arsenal they have won what 3 FA Cups between 2010-2020 and are still languishing below us in the league. So savvy managers will prioritise competitions that build long term success rather than short term glory. @Raziel, Arteta won the FA cup last season, it won him lots of good will which then evaporated about 5 games into this season when it was clear that even with that win, Arsenal are no better in the league or cups than last season. No one fears Arsenal or seriously believes they are going to be competing for big trophies. People did take both Arsenal and Spurs seriously though when they were competing in the Champions League and finishing in the top 4.

It will not save Arteta from the sack imho and it will mean that he will be in post for less time than Poch despite being a "winner". The same will apply to Jose, despite his credentials, if he only wins the Carabao Cup and doesn't qualify for the champs league. It also worries me what our top players will think the longer we remain out of the Champions League. I would forego a win in the Carabao to win the Europa League tbh. I think all our eggs should be in that basket once we reach 40 points.

So I agree with the vast majority of that, except

- I think winning the FA Cup is the only reason Arteta still has a job, they haven't been in the top 10 for majority of season, without that win, he wouldn't be there now.

 

[Robspur12]

If we win the EL then I think Jose should and would be given more time.

 

[Robspur12]

So I agree with the vast majority of that, except

- I think winning the FA Cup is the only reason Arteta still has a job, they haven't been in the top 10 for majority of season, without that win, he wouldn't be there now.

Maybe, it's hard to know. Arsenal are generally quite loyal to their managers. If he was at Cheatski, he'd be gone.

Conversely if Arteta had Arsenal in the top 4 even without the FA cup his stock would be higher. Just look at Brendan Rogers.

 

[AdamB]

Why is it an issue being critical of Spurs lack of trophies? We like to talk as if we are dining at the top table, this forum has constantly talked down the likes of Liverpool, Arsenal etc and laughed at them when we for the first time ever started being good enough to qualify for the CL and they were struggling in the league as if we had reached the holy ground. But the one thing all the actual big clubs do is win trophies, and until we do we are not going to be considered one of the true big boys like it or not....

perhaps critical is the wrong word but there is a narrative, more in the media rather than here, that we are somehow underperforming by not winning trophies. As if we should be winning trophies now. Anyone who thinks we're 'dining at the top table' is deluded:
- Man U have a huge fanbase and are richer than us
- Man C are bankrolled so are richer than us
- Liverpool are still benefiting from their fan base built up over the 80s
- Chelsea, whilst they should be no bigger than us, have the russian

All these should win a lot more trophies than us and between them should win 90%+ of trophies in England given their financial resource compared to other teams in the PL.

Arsenal won lots of trophies under Wenger, but that was massive outperformance by them relative to their size and wealth - it was a once in a century type outperformance. They are now back to a more normal level and are finding it as hard as we do to win trophies

 

[billyiddo]

If we win the EL then I think Jose should and would be given more time.

Yeah, you don't sack a manager if he wins you a European trophy

 

[Finney Is Back]

Why is it an issue being critical of Spurs lack of trophies? We like to talk as if we are dining at the top table, this forum has constantly talked down the likes of Liverpool, Arsenal etc and laughed at them when we for the first time ever started being good enough to qualify for the CL and they were struggling in the league as if we had reached the holy ground. But the one thing all the actual big clubs do is win trophies, and until we do we are not going to be considered one of the true big boys like it or not....

Typically the trophies follow after you become a big club that dines at the top table.... That's what gives you the finances to bring in and keep the best players.

 

[parklane1]

Look this is a chicken and egg argument. Big Players want to play for big, successful clubs that compete in most prestigious tournaments and pay the highest wages.

Winning League Cups and FA cups does not make you a big successful club. It's a great day out and the fans including me, love it but it isnt about building sustainable success. Look at Arsenal they have won what 3 FA Cups between 2010-2020 and are still languishing below us in the league. So savvy managers will prioritise competitions that build long term success rather than short term glory. @Raziel, Arteta won the FA cup last season, it won him lots of good will which then evaporated about 5 games into this season when it was clear that even with that win, Arsenal are no better in the league or cups than last season. No one fears Arsenal or seriously believes they are going to be competing for big trophies. People did take both Arsenal and Spurs seriously though when they were competing in the Champions League and finishing in the top 4.

It will not save Arteta from the sack imho and it will mean that he will be in post for less time than Poch despite being a "winner". The same will apply to Jose, despite his credentials, if he only wins the Carabao Cup and doesn't qualify for the champs league. It also worries me what our top players will think the longer we remain out of the Champions League. I would forego a win in the Carabao to win the Europa League tbh. I think all our eggs should be in that basket once we reach 40 points. If we are eliminated from the EL Jose is gone imho.

Of course they do and i do not disagree with that at all, but winning anything is a step on the ladder and it gives players and most fans a lift. Having been decent as a player i will never forget the first medal i got and it made me feel so good i was determined to win BIGGER and BETTER medals. Its the same for most if not all players and so it should.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I never said I didn’t agree or understand the need to prioritise, I’m just saying I understand the criticism and no one said anything about multiple trophies - fact is that we haven’t won a single one for years, how many other ‘big teams’ boast such a lean period? So until we do it’s a valid criticism.

There also isn’t a single big team who at some point don’t fail to qualify for the CL, so there was always going to be a period where this happened to us so if you haven’t won a trophy or two to fall back on then you really are nothing more than also rans....

So is what you are saying that the chairman shouldn't have panicked when the man who had taken the club to 4 CL qualifications in a row and was getting us closer and closer to winning a trophy, had his first blip and was looking unlikely to achieve qualification that season?

 

[Finney Is Back]

It controls the narrative, if we won two trophies this year, it would easily buy 4-5 years of being able to build the next step without constantly deflecting, it would calm down the nonsense media that constantly says "player x needs to leave Spurs to get trophies"

Truth is, we need to do both and that's a bitch to balance

So if we win the Carabao Cup this year what does that actually change at Spurs in terms of being able to compete for the big trophies?

 

[Jurgen the German]

perhaps critical is the wrong word but there is a narrative, more in the media rather than here, that we are somehow underperforming by not winning trophies. As if we should be winning trophies now. Anyone who thinks we're 'dining at the top table' is deluded:
- Man U have a huge fanbase and are richer than us
- Man C are bankrolled so are richer than us
- Liverpool are still benefiting from their fan base built up over the 80s
- Chelsea, whilst they should be no bigger than us, have the russian

All these should win a lot more trophies than us and between them should win 90%+ of trophies in England given their financial resource compared to other teams in the PL.

Arsenal won lots of trophies under Wenger, but that was massive outperformance by them relative to their size and wealth - it was a once in a century type outperformance. They are now back to a more normal level and are finding it as hard as we do to win trophies

I agree with you in theory. I do think however that we have had a squad that should have won something or was certainly capable of winning trophies under Redknapp and then under Poch. We finished no lower than 6th in the last decade. We have lost to United, Chelsea and Liverpool in the last 3 finals we’ve played in. No shame in that but sooner or later you have to beat a big team whether that’s in a 1/4, semi or final and we didn’t turn up when it mattered in big games.

 

[Jurgen the German]

So is what you are saying that the chairman shouldn't have panicked when the man who had taken the club to 4 CL qualifications in a row and was getting us closer and closer to winning a trophy, had his first blip and was looking unlikely to achieve qualification that season?

My view on Poch is he did a great job elevating us to CL regulars but had the players to win trophies at the same time. The two aren’t mutually exclusive IMO. Poch looked fed up and I think it was the best for both parties that we replaced him but I do accept he should have been backed more in the market;

 

[billyiddo]

My view on Poch is he did a great job elevating us to CL regulars but had the players to win trophies at the same time. The two aren’t mutually exclusive IMO. Poch looked fed up and I think it was the best for both parties that we replaced him but I do accept he should have been backed more in the market;

Evidence suggests unless you have deep pockets the two are mutually exclusive.

 

[Finney Is Back]

So I agree with the vast majority of that, except

- I think winning the FA Cup is the only reason Arteta still has a job, they haven't been in the top 10 for majority of season, without that win, he wouldn't be there now.

The only reason that Arteta is still in the job at Arsenal is that they are running out of managers to turn their sinking ship around IMO.

 

[billyiddo]

Leicester sacked Raneri after winning the league but Arsenal are keeping Arteta in a job because he won the FA Cup?

 

[Gazza]

The only reason that Arteta is still in the job at Arsenal is that they are running out of managers to turn their sinking ship around IMO.

There are plenty of Successful managers that would fancy a crack at the Arsenal Job. I know they are our rivals but, the premier league, London, average club is appealing. I think they massively flopped in getting arteta with visions of Pep Mk2 or coming good like OGS ... should have gone for Allegri all day long.