Jose Mourinho - SACKED

[DubSpur]

Just to put the above into a little more perspective....

We are in the 5th round of the FA Cup (having not yet played a PL club). Expected.
We are in the round of 32 in the Europa League. Expected
We are in the final of the Carabao Cup. Better than expected.
We are 8th in the league table. Worse than expected.

Jose will get to the end of the season unless the wheels really, really come off.

So far IMO he is probably achieving lower than his chairman’s expectations... but there is a lot of season left yet.

Is being in the final of the Carabao cup really better than expected considering the opponents faced in it?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Is being in the final of the Carabao cup really better than expected considering the opponents faced in it?

Yes
We have failed a LOT of semis
You can only beat the teams you face

 

[parklane1]

It’s not a binary decision regarding the motives for questioning the current situation. I thought Mourinho was the right appointment and taking sentiment aside from Poch replacing him felt like the right decision. His exit may have even been hastened by the fact Emery was also on his last legs and Mourinho was the outstanding pre proven manager with a track record of delivering trophies.
It’s not a massive difference from accusing anyone delighting in us being top, beating Emirates Marketing Project and Goons and lauding the signings of Hojbjerg and a Reguillon as acts of genius. You are allowed to change your mind based on the current situation. Obviously one or two games is a knee jerk reaction but it’s nit unreasonable to question how much longer a run like the last 10 performances against Prem opponents can last before the chairman decides a change is needed. West Brom was a good performance and result, city is now a free hit due to this and given their current form (5 consecutive prem defeats would take some soul searching from most chairmen. Everton is a funny one, win and the cup run continues but it’s probably more important to beat West Ham. It’s great that some people are more patient than others but personally I don’t see how Mourinho has until the end of the season unless our league form improves.
It’s fine to disagree and you can make a case for your own opinion but it does feel snarky for you to disregard an alternative point of view as not having any foundation. To me demanding his sacking today is not much different to unreservedly giving him until the end of the season. The cups, especially the Europa feel like get out of jail free cards and there is definitely space for people to express that recent form raises concerns that if it doesn’t turn around soon our chances of beating the teams we need to to win those competitions will seem less likely. I tried to not get too carried away either way over a couple of results, but the run we have been on needs to reversed quite quickly to regain confidence that we are progressing rather than regressing.

You make some fair points and i I can't dance with some of them, personally i never said or thought that when we were at the top we were going to finish there, all along i have said we are a work in progress and being top then and lower now does not change my mind at all, we are a work in progress and i never got carried away being top and i am not crying doom and gloom now. There were fans who did/have got carried away at both points but that is down to them.

As for being snarky you are way of the line, fans of any club are not the most patient of folks because of the way they feel about their club and its fine to get carried away at times, my beef is that it seems that the most vocal of those calling for Jose to go are those who thought he should never have got the job in the first place and can not wait to moan about it now. Of course as you say it COULD all go wrong but fearing the worse and saying he needs to go now ( and you know that has been said) is knee jerking at best.

 

[DaveT316]

It’s not a binary decision regarding the motives for questioning the current situation. I thought Mourinho was the right appointment and taking sentiment aside from Poch replacing him felt like the right decision. His exit may have even been hastened by the fact Emery was also on his last legs and Mourinho was the outstanding pre proven manager with a track record of delivering trophies.
It’s not a massive difference from accusing anyone delighting in us being top, beating Emirates Marketing Project and Goons and lauding the signings of Hojbjerg and a Reguillon as acts of genius. You are allowed to change your mind based on the current situation. Obviously one or two games is a knee jerk reaction but it’s nit unreasonable to question how much longer a run like the last 10 performances against Prem opponents can last before the chairman decides a change is needed. West Brom was a good performance and result, city is now a free hit due to this and given their current form (5 consecutive prem defeats would take some soul searching from most chairmen. Everton is a funny one, win and the cup run continues but it’s probably more important to beat West Ham. It’s great that some people are more patient than others but personally I don’t see how Mourinho has until the end of the season unless our league form improves.
It’s fine to disagree and you can make a case for your own opinion but it does feel snarky for you to disregard an alternative point of view as not having any foundation. To me demanding his sacking today is not much different to unreservedly giving him until the end of the season. The cups, especially the Europa feel like get out of jail free cards and there is definitely space for people to express that recent form raises concerns that if it doesn’t turn around soon our chances of beating the teams we need to to win those competitions will seem less likely. I tried to not get too carried away either way over a couple of results, but the run we have been on needs to reversed quite quickly to regain confidence that we are progressing rather than regressing.

Pretty much nails it, for me, anyway. Save for the lack of paragraphs

 

[Bishop]

I think you’re missing a third, less vocal group - those that sit somewhere in between these two extremes i.e. those that didn’t want him, but are prepared to give him a chance, as well as those that did want him but now feel he’s not the man for the job.

This forum, as in life, thrives on giving noisy people a platform to air extreme views, when actually there’s a large group of people whose more moderate views often goes unheard.

But hey, this is a discussion board, so opinions are what it’s all about, extreme or otherwise! I’m just not entirely sure they’re representative of the whole fanbase.

I was literally going to make this post. He's far too binary with his sectioning. Great post. [emoji106]

 

[Bishop]

You make some fair points and i I can't dance with some of them, personally i never said or thought that when we were at the top we were going to finish there, all along i have said we are a work in progress and being top then and lower now does not change my mind at all, we are a work in progress and i never got carried away being top and i am not crying doom and gloom now. There were fans who did/have got carried away at both points but that is down to them.

As for being snarky you are way of the line, fans of any club are not the most patient of folks because of the way they feel about their club and its fine to get carried away at times, my beef is that it seems that the most vocal of those calling for Jose to go are those who thought he should never have got the job in the first place and can not wait to moan about it now. Of course as you say it COULD all go wrong but fearing the worse and saying he needs to go now ( and you know that has been said) is knee jerking at best.

But this is your assumption that those now criticising Jose are the same people who were never willing to give him a chance in the first place. That's your assumption viewed from your own rather biased perspective. You can not speak for every one and you need to stop assuming you know exactly everybody's motives.

It's a bit of a simplistic view to boil in down to you either wanted Jose and trust him implicitly or you didn't want him and can't see anything positive he does at all.

 

[parklane1]

But this is your assumption that those now criticising Jose are the same people who were never willing to give him a chance in the first place. That's your assumption viewed from your own rather biased perspective. You can not speak for every one and you need to stop assuming you know exactly everybody's motives.

It's a bit of a simplistic view to boil in down to you either wanted Jose and trust him implicitly or you didn't want him and can't see anything positive he does at all.

You are right that is a simplistic view but that is not my point, maybe i never explained it that well, i am not saying that the only folks who are slagging of Jose now are all the same as those who made it clear they were not happy with his appointment ( just that they seems to be a lot of them). It does seem though that you are assuming that is what my thoughts are though and that you assume i am trying to speak for everybody.

 

[Bishop]

You are right that is a simplistic view but that is not my point, maybe i never explained it that well, i am not saying that the only folks who are slagging of Jose now are all the same as those who made it clear they were not happy with his appointment ( just that they seems to be a lot of them). It does seem though that you are assuming that is what my thoughts are though and that you assume i am trying to speak for everybody.

Lol fair enough, sometimes text isn't the clearest form of communication. [emoji28]

 

[parklane1]

Lol fair enough, sometimes text isn't the clearest form of communication. [emoji28]

Peace and love man. Its true what they say that assume can make a ass (of) u (and) me.

 

[Raziel]

I can’t name one person that wanted him in my group of mates
I can name the small group who still are happy to give him time (3 people) and non-figuratively everyone else despises him
I’ve heard many references to his time at Chelsea and United by those guys (they don’t mention the trophies one in that time though even though they were won against us in some cases
He is a person who is very divisive. He is also a manager who only cares about results and the end product
But he is here now, and people are entitled to their views as you say

Is he though? or do we see/hear what we want to believe, what the narrative/media is telling us

- I don't find Jose says particularly shocking things or blames everyone else as was the narrative before, in fact I find him often surprisingly honest, Poch's interviews were never interesting (language challenges, philosophy or "this is football"), Klopp is fudging delusional (wind, keeper's cold feet, brick you just couldn't make up) and the fact that he calls out the league and FA on their brick is great.
- Re players, he's done miracles with Ndombele, Kane has a new role, the only "victim" right now is Dele and he still can make it back into team
- The last part I'm probably going drive people crazy with, when we play well, I don't think our football is boring, I don't think controlling a match, limiting the opposition and smashing them on the counter is in anyway boring. Yes in our last 10 games where we had bad results, we looked short of ideas and boring but Reguilon, Ndombele, Son, Kane don't make for watching boring football. To me the game that highlighted it was Leeds, where Leeds played what everyone seems to think is exciting football and we played the boring stuff, controlled them and smashed them. Naïve football isn't exciting, it's just stupid and we have seen plenty stupid football at Spurs over the years.
- I think the fact that we don't play one way confuses people who have become very accustomed to systems, so when the system doesn't work, you at least knew what the team was trying to do, we will change every game, and usually it produces one of three results -> counter works, we may sacrifice possession but we keep opponent in front of us and we smash them on counter, not ugly, 2nd counter works but both teams end up nullifying each other, game is boring, 3rd counter fails (usually when our midfield isn't good enough or setup right), we struggle to find a rhythm, boring game
- The pragmatic is completely true, he's not going to give Vinicius extra time to help him at the expense of today's result, he's not going to play Dele to keep him happy, he's going to do what he thinks it takes to get the result at the end of season.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Is he though? or do we see/hear what we want to believe, what the narrative/media is telling us

- I don't find Jose says particularly shocking things or blames everyone else as was the narrative before, in fact I find him often surprisingly honest, Poch's interviews were never interesting (language challenges, philosophy or "this is football"), Klopp is fudging delusional (wind, keeper's cold feet, brick you just couldn't make up) and the fact that he calls out the league and FA on their brick is great.
- Re players, he's done miracles with Ndombele, Kane has a new role, the only "victim" right now is Dele and he still can make it back into team
- The last part I'm probably going drive people crazy with, when we play well, I don't think our football is boring, I don't think controlling a match, limiting the opposition and smashing them on the counter is in anyway boring. Yes in our last 10 games where we had bad results, we looked short of ideas and boring but Reguilon, Ndombele, Son, Kane don't make for watching boring football. To me the game that highlighted it was Leeds, where Leeds played what everyone seems to think is exciting football and we played the boring stuff, controlled them and smashed them. Naïve football isn't exciting, it's just stupid and we have seen plenty stupid football at Spurs over the years.
- I think the fact that we don't play one way confuses people who have become very accustomed to systems, so when the system doesn't work, you at least knew what the team was trying to do, we will change every game, and usually it produces one of three results -> counter works, we may sacrifice possession but we keep opponent in front of us and we smash them on counter, not ugly, 2nd counter works but both teams end up nullifying each other, game is boring, 3rd counter fails (usually when our midfield isn't good enough or setup right), we struggle to find a rhythm, boring game
- The pragmatic is completely true, he's not going to give Vinicius extra time to help him at the expense of today's result, he's not going to play Dele to keep him happy, he's going to do what he thinks it takes to get the result at the end of season.

He is divisive
You can just see that on here
And it’s not just because of his ex clubs managed
Some poeple love him and others loathe him
And that’s fine isn’t it?
It’s not got a huge amount to do with the football a lot of of the time either. I’ve heard many complain about his press conferences. Someone complained that he gave Scarlett a debut. I mean if people don’t like him their sometimes going to find things to pick on.
But he just cares about results and that’s his job in his eyes

 

[thfcsteff]

Tell me honestly, if Jose brought home two trophies this season, lets say League and Europa, you think a single person in two years will remember how we played?

Only one of those trophies equals progress.

 

[thfcsteff]

The barricades are drawn between those that dislike Jose and what he stands for and never wanted him here in the first place ( and its obvious to see that those who never wanted him are rubbing their hands in glee over the last couple of games). The other side of the fence are those who can see that he has been a very good manager( which his trophy haul shows) and are willing to give him time to rebuild a team that was finished as a force and to rebuild a new one.

Now if that rebuild was not hard enough he has had to deal with the Covid effect and the amount of new players he is trying to get fit and intergrate into the team. I think its fair before any decision is made he should get at least to the end of the season to see what happens and then see how we stand.

I get that Jose is not every fans cup of tea but some of the witch hunt by som e fans is over the top and is showing their personal dislike of the manger rather then the situation of the team at this time. A cup final, still in Europe, still in the FA Cup and despite what some are say we are still in with a chance of the top four. Now i am not saying we will win any of those things but he deserves a chance to see if he can help us do that.

Sorry, that's not strictly true. Some are in those "one camp v the other" but not everyone.

I do not like him and wish he had not been appointed.
I do want him to succeed and I want us to succeed.
I'd like to think it can still be with the style and class we are known for on and off the pitch.

I also recognize that there are some very unfortunate circumstances he has had to deal with, not the least of which is him being him and some people being unable to reconcile that fact. It is no different to expecting Sissoko to pass like Eriksen. Put simply, it isn't in his wheelhouse. And expecting Mourinho to be as charming and Shankley-esque as some of our previous managers is grossly unfair. I have certainly been guilty of that. There are other areas in which I think is is dealing with a stacked wicket too (odd phrase and probably makes no sense but you know what I mean).

There are a fair few of us who feel this way.

The problems come when proclamations made trip up the reality either being witnessed or offered. I think if we're all honest, Jose Mourinho was brought here to win, not rebuild. I think the thought was that he could, with a few additions, cross the line and then be off in 3 years having delivered us silverware and kept us in the CL. So "time to rebuild" does not necessarily stack up for me personally. Indeed,if we dump 200 million this summer on players he wants, what guarantee do we have he will still be here in two years time to continue working with them? His track record suggests otherwise.

I think he most certainly will (and probably should) be given the season. But make no mistake, if it looks like we are not going to be in next season's CL, he might go sooner a la Levy.

 

[thfcsteff]

You’re right, it really is and as long as people treat other’s views with respect, I’ve got no issue with any of it.

Re those not-so-vocal fans, I’ve got about six others in my Spurs ‘circle’. There’s definitely one that wanted him (and still wants him, as he’s a ‘winner’), the rest were largely indifferent when he came and I’d say they’re same now, although recognise the quality of football has been v poor recently without explicitly saying he needs to go. Me and one other wanted him gone as we felt we were trapped in a ‘negative spiral’. So overall, a mixed bag in our small sample of seven.

Agreed. BTW, check out this week's pod as we took on one of your questions and acknowledged you ...FWIW a technical glitch saved you from hearing the full extent of my rant, needless to say, lemons, auras, emotions and beauty all figured in what this club stands for to me. The game -as Danny said- is about glory, all the fudging way, and glory comes in many shapes and forms!

 

[greatwhitenorf]

Peace and love man. Its true what they say that assume can make a ass (of) u (and) me.

First day of Journalishm skule, first lesson, first word written on the board - Ass/u/me.

 

[braineclipse]

Sorry, that's not strictly true. Some are in those "one camp v the other" but not everyone.

I do not like him and wish he had not been appointed.
I do want him to succeed and I want us to succeed.
I'd like to think it can still be with the style and class we are known for on and off the pitch.

I also recognize that there are some very unfortunate circumstances he has had to deal with, not the least of which is him being him and some people being unable to reconcile that fact. It is no different to expecting Sissoko to pass like Eriksen. Put simply, it isn't in his wheelhouse. And expecting Mourinho to be as charming and Shankley-esque as some of our previous managers is grossly unfair. I have certainly been guilty of that. There are other areas in which I think is is dealing with a stacked wicket too (odd phrase and probably makes no sense but you know what I mean).

There are a fair few of us who feel this way.

The problems come when proclamations made trip up the reality either being witnessed or offered. I think if we're all honest, Jose Mourinho was brought here to win, not rebuild. I think the thought was that he could, with a few additions, cross the line and then be off in 3 years having delivered us silverware and kept us in the CL. So "time to rebuild" does not necessarily stack up for me personally. Indeed,if we dump 200 million this summer on players he wants, what guarantee do we have he will still be here in two years time to continue working with them? His track record suggests otherwise.

I think he most certainly will (and probably should) be given the season. But make no mistake, if it looks like we are not going to be in next season's CL, he might go sooner a la Levy.

I think what you quoted can be true, but it depends on how your read it. I think it can be read as there also being people in between the two more polarised opinions.

Rebuild or win, to some extent I think both are possible. The team he put together during his first spell at Chelsea was built and kept winning long after he left.

Look at the players we've signed and paid actual money for. Hojbjerg was a steal and seems versatile enough to work in many different styles. Reguilon will be class of he isn't already and can thrive in many different styles. Both fairly young. Bergwijn definitely one more for the future, not at all a short term solution. Rodon same. Doherty has been a bit meh and is a bit older, but he's the only one we've paid a real fee for that might be seen as more of a short term, non rebuilding solution. And even then, fairly cheap and not a 30+ player for big money.

If the MO in the transfer market remains the same I see no reason why it can't be rebuild and try to win things. How he does with the existing younger and mid twenties players will also be important though. Get Skipp, Sessegnon etc integrated and performing. Keep Ndombele, Lo Celso (when fit) etc moving in the right direction.

If the thinking is that Mourinho is just in a short term, win now, disregard the future mode I think that's just not true. Had he spent our money on 30+ or even 28+ year old players on huge wages I'd get it, but that's not happening.

If he's being held to the standard that he will be ruining everything for the next guy in the next 6-24 months so we have to win quickly for it to be worth it I think that's unfair. If we can't find a new manager happy to work with Hojbjerg, Reguilon, Bergwijn and Rodon that's not on Mourinho imo.

From peak Pochettino imo we've lost Walker, Verts, Wanyama, Dembele and Eriksen with Rose and Alderweireld at various stages of age related decline yet still here. That's the entire back four, deep duo and our most creative player.

A rebuild was needed, it's happening, if it's successful is another question. But it seems strange to me to judge Mourinho based on a rebuild not being the approach taken.

 

[elltrev]

Is he though? or do we see/hear what we want to believe, what the narrative/media is telling us

- I don't find Jose says particularly shocking things or blames everyone else as was the narrative before, in fact I find him often surprisingly honest, Poch's interviews were never interesting (language challenges, philosophy or "this is football"), Klopp is fudging delusional (wind, keeper's cold feet, brick you just couldn't make up) and the fact that he calls out the league and FA on their brick is great.
- Re players, he's done miracles with Ndombele, Kane has a new role, the only "victim" right now is Dele and he still can make it back into team
- The last part I'm probably going drive people crazy with, when we play well, I don't think our football is boring, I don't think controlling a match, limiting the opposition and smashing them on the counter is in anyway boring. Yes in our last 10 games where we had bad results, we looked short of ideas and boring but Reguilon, Ndombele, Son, Kane don't make for watching boring football. To me the game that highlighted it was Leeds, where Leeds played what everyone seems to think is exciting football and we played the boring stuff, controlled them and smashed them. Naïve football isn't exciting, it's just stupid and we have seen plenty stupid football at Spurs over the years.
- I think the fact that we don't play one way confuses people who have become very accustomed to systems, so when the system doesn't work, you at least knew what the team was trying to do, we will change every game, and usually it produces one of three results -> counter works, we may sacrifice possession but we keep opponent in front of us and we smash them on counter, not ugly, 2nd counter works but both teams end up nullifying each other, game is boring, 3rd counter fails (usually when our midfield isn't good enough or setup right), we struggle to find a rhythm, boring game
- The pragmatic is completely true, he's not going to give Vinicius extra time to help him at the expense of today's result, he's not going to play Dele to keep him happy, he's going to do what he thinks it takes to get the result at the end of season.

I don’t think the Leeds game was at all typical of the style that people take issue with - from memory it was the highest up the pitch we’ve defended and the most we’ve pressed all season?

 

[thfcsteff]

I think what you quoted can be true, but it depends on how your read it. I think it can be read as there also being people in between the two more polarised opinions.

Rebuild or win, to some extent I think both are possible. The team he put together during his first spell at Chelsea was built and kept winning long after he left.

Look at the players we've signed and paid actual money for. Hojbjerg was a steal and seems versatile enough to work in many different styles. Reguilon will be class of he isn't already and can thrive in many different styles. Both fairly young. Bergwijn definitely one more for the future, not at all a short term solution. Rodon same. Doherty has been a bit meh and is a bit older, but he's the only one we've paid a real fee for that might be seen as more of a short term, non rebuilding solution. And even then, fairly cheap and not a 30+ player for big money.

If the MO in the transfer market remains the same I see no reason why it can't be rebuild and try to win things. How he does with the existing younger and mid twenties players will also be important though. Get Skipp, Sessegnon etc integrated and performing. Keep Ndombele, Lo Celso (when fit) etc moving in the right direction.

If the thinking is that Mourinho is just in a short term, win now, disregard the future mode I think that's just not true. Had he spent our money on 30+ or even 28+ year old players on huge wages I'd get it, but that's not happening.

If he's being held to the standard that he will be ruining everything for the next guy in the next 6-24 months so we have to win quickly for it to be worth it I think that's unfair. If we can't find a new manager happy to work with Hojbjerg, Reguilon, Bergwijn and Rodon that's not on Mourinho imo.

From peak Pochettino imo we've lost Walker, Verts, Wanyama, Dembele and Eriksen with Rose and Alderweireld at various stages of age related decline yet still here. That's the entire back four, deep duo and our most creative player.

A rebuild was needed, it's happening, if it's successful is another question. But it seems strange to me to judge Mourinho based on a rebuild not being the approach taken.

Never forget who our "DoF" is and who gets the final say in our transfers...and if you believe Mourinho was brought here to rebuild, well, it appears we disagree. The question is whether it is fair to expect instant grat from him or not given the "painful" rebuild spoken of before. That is worthy of some good debate...

 

[braineclipse]

Never forget who our "DoF" is and who gets the final say in our transfers...and if you believe Mourinho was brought here to rebuild, well, it appears we disagree. The question is whether it is fair to expect instant grat from him or not given the "painful" rebuild spoken of before. That is worthy of some good debate...

Mourinho knew that when he took over. There's been zero complaining from him on not being able to sign other players, he's usually not one to hide his disappointments all that much.

If Levy and Mourinho didn't agree on a plan, a strategy including a transfer approach before he signed I would be flabbergasted.

He might at some point start demanding a different strategy if he's to achieve the goals set, so far I see no sign of that.

He's rebuilding rather well the way I see it. The results short term haven't been up to expectations, everyone knows that.

 

[parklane1]

I think what you quoted can be true, but it depends on how your read it. I think it can be read as there also being people in between the two more polarised opinions.

Rebuild or win, to some extent I think both are possible. The team he put together during his first spell at Chelsea was built and kept winning long after he left.

Look at the players we've signed and paid actual money for. Hojbjerg was a steal and seems versatile enough to work in many different styles. Reguilon will be class of he isn't already and can thrive in many different styles. Both fairly young. Bergwijn definitely one more for the future, not at all a short term solution. Rodon same. Doherty has been a bit meh and is a bit older, but he's the only one we've paid a real fee for that might be seen as more of a short term, non rebuilding solution. And even then, fairly cheap and not a 30+ player for big money.

If the MO in the transfer market remains the same I see no reason why it can't be rebuild and try to win things. How he does with the existing younger and mid twenties players will also be important though. Get Skipp, Sessegnon etc integrated and performing. Keep Ndombele, Lo Celso (when fit) etc moving in the right direction.

If the thinking is that Mourinho is just in a short term, win now, disregard the future mode I think that's just not true. Had he spent our money on 30+ or even 28+ year old players on huge wages I'd get it, but that's not happening.

If he's being held to the standard that he will be ruining everything for the next guy in the next 6-24 months so we have to win quickly for it to be worth it I think that's unfair. If we can't find a new manager happy to work with Hojbjerg, Reguilon, Bergwijn and Rodon that's not on Mourinho imo.

From peak Pochettino imo we've lost Walker, Verts, Wanyama, Dembele and Eriksen with Rose and Alderweireld at various stages of age related decline yet still here. That's the entire back four, deep duo and our most creative player.

A rebuild was needed, it's happening, if it's successful is another question. But it seems strange to me to judge Mourinho based on a rebuild not being the approach taken.

I do agree. Good post