Coronavirus

[scaramanga]

Hahaha! Have you been in Norway or Sweden and seen what is considered "urban areas"?
This is from Norway, but it's very typical for what is included in the term 'urban areas' for Sweden as well.
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The Stockholm/Sweden ratio is not that far off London/UK.

The sparseness outside major cities would explain their shallower curve compared to the UK, but not the shape of the curve.

 

[scaramanga]

Of course there are improvements. Levying some kind of charges so people value what they are getting to me makes sense. But are you under appreciating what we have? A health services that costs significantly less than other nation - like Germany - but does a pretty outstanding job.

I suppose the question is, would you be willing to pay more taxes to invest more in the NHS?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Our health service is appealing compared to Germany.

I already do pay more to get better - I just have to avoid the NHS to get it. I certainly wouldn't pay more into something as outdated as the NHS. I'd pay more into a system like Germany's though.

 

[P.D.]

Maybe you missed it, but NHS reviews are almost more common than a need for PPE. Knowledgeable people who live and work in this sphere everyday advocate letting the experienced people in the NHS get on with the job of running it. They have had review and reform constantly.

A core issue is with no spare capacity or money, they are constantly firefighting which makes reform and improvement hard. However, for the money we spend the NHS is bloomin amazing. We can (and should imo) charge people small amounts relative to their means for services so they respect it more and to raise a few more billion per year. But otherwise you get what you pay for. Do you want higher taxes to pay for a better service?

I do agree about making health (and education) cross-party. Both are too important.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Can you point me to the review done on a cross party basis addressing the items raised in my points then? Point is it's not been done, people tinker round the edges but don't look to put something integrated across all areas that has consensus politically and medically.

The last review/re-org was the Lansley reforms which have shown to be a disaster with so many different bodies everywhere it seems there's no accountability.

I've already said I would pay slightly higher taxes but only if implemented on this basis otherwise the money would just be squandered and it would carry on business as usual.

 

[Legohamster]

The predictions were that we'd see an exponential increase without action. It looks to me as if they were massively over valuing the early part of the data set and projecting a different shape curve rather than a different scale.

Basing it on the dates they had at the time without any investigating that it’s been out months before.

Think in years to come it will be seen as a fudge up - world wide.

I imagine that’s why Belgium are opening up now even though they have had it worse.

The potential window to sue for damages after all this is massive

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Isn’t successful forward thinking precisely what set Germany, Korean, S Africa etc apart?

What is your view the UK government’s performance so far?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

That's what I and others are saying....we don't know.

Step 1 looks successful because they have reduced deaths. Obviously a good thing BUT if you haven't got any new tool to stop those who have avoided it succumbing, those deaths are front loaded.

On top of that, if infections are minimal you are then behind the curve if that ends up being the quickest (relatively) way out of this.

I'm not saying that IS the best way just that if you think it thru logically it is a viable conclusion.

As for our government. They wanted to not overwhelm the NHS, they did that. They've pushed the boat out to help the public financially. The PPE issue is a disgrace. Much of the rest is noise.

 

[Grays_1890]

That's what I and others are saying....we don't know.

Step 1 looks successful because they have reduced deaths. Obviously a good thing BUT if you haven't got any new tool to stop those who have avoided it succumbing, those deaths are front loaded.

On top of that, if infections are minimal you are then behind the curve if that ends up being the quickest (relatively) way out of this.

I'm not saying that IS the best way just that if you think it thru logically it is a viable conclusion.

As for our government. They wanted to not overwhelm the NHS, they did that. They've pushed the boat out to help the public financially. The PPE issue is a disgrace. Much of the rest is noise.

Absolutely my sentiments well played sir

 

[SpurMeUp]

Our health service is appealing compared to Germany.

I already do pay more to get better - I just have to avoid the NHS to get it. I certainly wouldn't pay more into something as outdated as the NHS. I'd pay more into a system like Germany's though.

I hope you’re not “UK bashing” [emoji23]

The NHS is appealing over German health care? Yes it is decent, and anyone who’s been cared who had this virus will attest the NHS is filled with hard working caring people. But we don’t invest as much in it as say Germany or other European nations and so it’s organisation and facilities are not as impressive.

It can of course be improved but not whilst it is fighting fires with just enough to stand still. Moreover, you have to recognise that it is not black and white. The NHS is not all ineffective and inefficient. There is good practice and areas that could be improved. Can’t write off such a large multifaceted organization that does so much, much of it vital life giving and saving work.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[SpurMeUp]

That's what I and others are saying....we don't know.

Step 1 looks successful because they have reduced deaths. Obviously a good thing BUT if you haven't got any new tool to stop those who have avoided it succumbing, those deaths are front loaded.

On top of that, if infections are minimal you are then behind the curve if that ends up being the quickest (relatively) way out of this.

I'm not saying that IS the best way just that if you think it thru logically it is a viable conclusion.

As for our government. They wanted to not overwhelm the NHS, they did that. They've pushed the boat out to help the public financially. The PPE issue is a disgrace. Much of the rest is noise.

The only thing loaded is your position. Seemingly neutral on the fence, seems to me you’re trying to defend this government in a round about way. Which is fair enough. If you are arguing something, good to be upfront and clear.

I think most sane people would take South Korea, Germany, South Africa where they acted fast, tested fast, tracked the virus and saved thousands of people’s lives. Who would prefer thousands of deaths!?

We are now trying to emulate these nations so we can open up again.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[scaramanga]

Interesting comparison between Sweden and the Czech Republic.

Czech Republic has a similar population Size to Sweden and is therefore a better comparison, than comparing Sweden to the U.K.

Czech Republic lockdown started mid march and as of Friday they recorded 213 covid deaths, while Sweden in the same timeframe has had more than 2,000 deaths!

Not only that but CZ will have seen a lot of money flowing away. When they closed their borders we, and quite a few other businesses I know of, took all our cash out of the country.

In our case it was only a few CZKM but for some it would have been a lot more.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Can you point me to the review done on a cross party basis addressing the items raised in my points then? Point is it's not been done, people tinker round the edges but don't look to put something integrated across all areas that has consensus politically and medically.

The last review/re-org was the Lansley reforms which have shown to be a disaster with so many different bodies everywhere it seems there's no accountability.

I've already said I would pay slightly higher taxes but only if implemented on this basis otherwise the money would just be squandered and it would carry on business as usual.

So there was a review...which was a disaster. And you want another? My point was the people working in the NHS know what works and what needs fixing. Reviews are not going to fix anything. What will is investing.

But I am largely in agreement. Cross party non-ideological long term planning would do wonders. Problem is the NHS is loaded with political biases. Labour try and own it, Conservatives try and privatise it. Do away with all that gonad*s and focus cross party on improving it.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[scaramanga]

So there was a review...which was a disaster. And you want another? My point was the people working in the NHS know what works and what needs fixing. Reviews are not going to fix anything. What will is investing.

But I am largely in agreement. Cross party non-ideological long term planning would do wonders. Problem is the NHS is loaded with political biases. Labour try and own it, Conservatives try and privatise it. Do away with all that gonad*s and focus cross party on improving it.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Or accept you can't fix something that's fundamentally broken in its very concept and replace it with something fit for purpose.

 

[Kandi1977]

The Stockholm/Sweden ratio is not that far off London/UK.

The sparseness outside major cities would explain their shallower curve compared to the UK, but not the shape of the curve.

Well, their strategy has failed massively. Their goal was to keep the elder population safe, by gently recommending that sick people should stay at home, and don't visit old people and nursing homes. That has failed catastrophically, as the virus has reached lots of nursing homes and old people, causing the relatively high rate of death.

 

[markysimmo]

Everton said they were "appalled" after images emerged appearing to show striker Moise Kean at a house party.

The Daily Star Sunday reported that Italian Kean, 20, filmed himself at the party in his apartment.

Everton said they were "appalled to learn of an incident in which a first-team player ignored government guidance and club policy in relation to the coronavirus crisis".

The club has "strongly expressed its disappointment to the player."

 

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

Or accept you can't fix something that's fundamentally broken in its very concept and replace it with something fit for purpose.

How is it fundamentally broken in its very concept? I know the NHS has many problems, in terms of funding, governance and strategy (having worked on the mes for many years as an auditor) but I can't say I agree with the principle that it is fundamentally broken in its very concept we feel that your position is driven by your political ideology rather than reality.

At the tail end of last year my mum had a cancer scare, heart scare, and fell down the stairs. In every instance the NHS response was first class.

There are undoubtedly improvements that can be made but by and large anyone who has had to rely on the NHS has been very grateful for their existence especially when the alternative is something like the us private healthcare system which is a sick joke and a nightmare. Literally a gross affront to human morality and decently in supposedly the richest/greatest nation in the world.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I hope you’re not “UK bashing” [emoji23]


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

He is allowed to he is British he lives and works here.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Perfect example of the press creating a negative story...

 

[scaramanga]

Well, their strategy has failed massively. Their goal was to keep the elder population safe, by gently recommending that sick people should stay at home, and don't visit old people and nursing homes. That has failed catastrophically, as the virus has reached lots of nursing homes and old people, causing the relatively high rate of death.

How has it failed if it isn't complete?

It appears to me as if they've got their way past the peak without the need to any loss of civil liberty. That has a price, I'm not sure how high that price is but I do know it's much higher than their current death delta. That's before you take into account the lives saved in the future through better immunity and a better economy.

 

[Kandi1977]

How has it failed if it isn't complete?

It appears to me as if they've got their way past the peak without the need to any loss of civil liberty. That has a price, I'm not sure how high that price is but I do know it's much higher than their current death delta. That's before you take into account the lives saved in the future through better immunity and a better economy.

They have 5 times as many deaths as Norway, adjusted for population, and first case and first death at pretty much the same time, and also similar number and source of initial cases.

 

[Legohamster]

They have 5 times as many deaths as Norway, adjusted for population, and first case and first death at pretty much the same time, and also similar number and source of initial cases.

I don’t think you can assess numbers at the moment.

Need to see the impact of other things first

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

So there was a review...which was a disaster. And you want another? My point was the people working in the NHS know what works and what needs fixing. Reviews are not going to fix anything. What will is investing.

But I am largely in agreement. Cross party non-ideological long term planning would do wonders. Problem is the NHS is loaded with political biases. Labour try and own it, Conservatives try and privatise it. Do away with all that gonad*s and focus cross party on improving it.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

I would disagree that the best people to sort out the NHS are the ones currently working in it.

But agree the needs to be cross party consensus on keeping it. Which would involve the tories starting to respect it more, not something i can ever see happening.

I do like the idea of a health tax just for the NHS.