Coronavirus

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

Just as nothing yet disproves any other approach that you've labelled 'bullshi.t'.

What is a distinct possibility, if the only way out of this is for people to be infected, (and we don't want to hide for 18 months) then the shallow long drawn out curve of deaths from hiding is the same for infections. So those countries will be behind in the race for immunity.

Plus if you're predisposed to the virus it's still going to find you in July, August etc even if you swerved it in April...it's just waiting for you to open the door.

Having restrictions for the NHS to cope is 400% right if it enables everyone, who needs it, to receive the best care possible.

Sorry where did I label any approach as bs? Your statement that I did Certainly is complete and utter bs!

I said that some approaches were demonstrably more effective than others as is borne out by statistics and hard data.

Lockdown is not about hiding, it's, as you point out in the post above, about

Having restrictions for the NHS to cope is 400% right if it enables everyone, who needs it, to receive the best care possible

It also buys the government a d society in general some time to organize an effective response to the pandemic

 

[scaramanga]

That's not a realistic comparison. GB have 6 times the population in half the area, so much easier to spread the virus in GB, because of the density of the population.

They also have a huge lag in reported deaths, and do not test nearly as many as other countries. Sweden in reality have massively fudged up, and they are starting to realise it now, as there is popping up infection clusters all over the country now, and numbers will rise again.

87% of Sweden's population lives in urban areas Vs 83% of the UK.

 

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

Germany has a privately operated healthcare system which will always be more flexible and competent than a system like ours which is nearly 100 years out of date. They also have a larger proportion of their population living in rural areas and far more than Sweden do.

Sweden has a significantly higher proportion of its population living in urban areas than both the UK and Germany.

Your comments on Germany's healthcare system and ours are highly subjective an biased by your political opinion.

Your comments on the proportion on population split between rural and urban is also highly subjective. U.K. Urban population is circa 83% of total, while the Swedish stat is 87%.

I wouldn't say that is significant higher.

 

[scaramanga]

Your comments on Germany's healthcare system and ours are highly subjective an biased by your political opinion.

Your comments on the proportion on population split between rural and urban is also highly subjective. U.K. Urban population is circa 83% of total, while the Swedish stat is 87%.

I wouldn't say that is significant higher.

It's a 31% increase - I'd call that significant.

 

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

It's a 31% increase - I'd call that significant.

4%? Where dip you get 31% from??

 

[P.D.]

Sweden has the advantage that around 40-50% of people live on their own and it's quite rare for people to live with their elderley relatives which makes controlling spreading a lot easier.

 

[Grays_1890]

In that case how do you explain the difference between germany and the U.K./Spain/France/Italy?

Clearly there is a difference, and that key difference is that Germany acted early and decisively.

Sweden could well be an anonomaly since
a) it's far less densely populated and
b) it's far less of an international transport/business hub therefore fewer travellers returning home or passing through with infection.

By your reckoning we have done well but can blame our troubles on the most densely populated capital in Europe and populous per Sqm and being the most international country in Europe?

Correct?

 

[P.D.]

Anyone else feeling a bit sorry for Hanrooster? It seems like he is running the whole Covid operation. Testing, PPE, ventilators and hospital capacity. Wouldn't it have made sense to put a Minister in charge of each area? Give testing to one dedicated Minister. Likewise procurement of PPE and other essential supplies. To be fair to Hanrooster or maybe just the NHS, the one thing we seem to have done very well at is expanding hospital capacity and critical care.

I think being health secretary in this country is dommed to fail, sure we can throw some more money at it and things will improve to an extent but until everyone (i.e. all parties and the public) recognize that a service designed with quite different demographics years ago doesn't need reforming to fit the modern day things will carry on as they are.

It needs a full cross party review on what the NHS is, what it should deliver and how it should be funded including fully integrating it with social care.

I mean the fact people get up in arms about paying £10 if they DONT turn up to a DR's appointment is ridiculous.

May tried to partly address this with the social care tax which was at least a progressive policy but look how it was shouted down from all angles, sadly I don't think the people responsible are mature enough yet for this discussion to take place.

 

[Grays_1890]

sa...not sure what it was tbh?

That I find it incredible when people come on here wonderlusting about other countries to beat us with a stick without stating the full picture which doesn’t pain them in such a great light.

I’ve got no issue with the U.K. bashing but if you are going to post things people are also entitled to come back with points of view

 

[Grays_1890]

Sweden has the advantage that around 40-50% of people live on their own and it's quite rare for people to live with their elderley relatives which makes controlling spreading a lot easier.

Maybe they consider that in their thinking?

pick the situation that suits them.

I’m Addition people still practice social distancing it’s just they trust the public to follow rules better. And if you want to isolate you can, many still do.

I think their version of this is more grown up

 

[scaramanga]

4%? Where dip you get 31% from??

You're talking about the variance in a small number. So an overall 4% increase is a 30% increase on a number as small as 13% - that's significant (both colloquially and mathematically).

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Or you could look at what is happening in countries that actively pursued preventative measures such as Germany, Taiwan, Singapore and New Zealand. All of which demonstrate that that theory is complete and utter bs!

Sorry where did I label any approach as bs? Your statement that I did Certainly is complete and utter bs

There it is fella.

I'm not advocating one method over another, just that all methods at this stage have avenues to be successful. Logical thinking is all it takes. You are not even applying that to the method you are commending. And that's not me being negative about that method just logic dictates there is issues with that route as well given what we know and the tools we have available. (Pretty much none ATM)

Forward thinking is the only thinking that matters here.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think being health secretary in this country is dommed to fail, sure we can throw some more money at it and things will improve to an extent but until everyone (i.e. all parties and the public) recognize that a service designed with quite different demographics years ago doesn't need reforming to fit the modern day things will carry on as they are.

It needs a full cross party review on what the NHS is, what it should deliver and how it should be funded including fully integrating it with social care.

I mean the fact people get up in arms about paying £10 if they DONT turn up to a DR's appointment is ridiculous.

May tried to partly address this with the social care tax which was at least a progressive policy but look how it was shouted down from all angles, sadly I don't think the people responsible are mature enough yet for this discussion to take place.

Of course there are improvements. Levying some kind of charges so people value what they are getting to me makes sense. But are you under appreciating what we have? A health services that costs significantly less than other nation - like Germany - but does a pretty outstanding job.

I suppose the question is, would you be willing to pay more taxes to invest more in the NHS?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[SpurMeUp]

There it is fella.

I'm not advocating one method over another, just that all methods at this stage have avenues to be successful. Logical thinking is all it takes. You are not even applying that to the method you are commending. And that's not me being negative about that method just logic dictates there is issues with that route as well given what we know and the tools we have available. (Pretty much none ATM)

Forward thinking is the only thinking that matters here.

Isn’t successful forward thinking precisely what set Germany, Korean, S Africa etc apart?

What is your view the UK government’s performance so far?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

By your reckoning we have done well but can blame our troubles on the most densely populated capital in Europe and populous per Sqm and being the most international country in Europe?

Correct?

Partially. I think our troubles stem from failing to act early and decisively, but at least we did act eventually. Had we done nothing as has been suggested on here the results could have been catastrophic.

My comments about population density and international trade were around the suppositions on here that the Swedish approach would have a similar outcome in the U.K. I don't agre for the reasons started.

 

[P.D.]

Of course there are improvements. Levying some kind of charges so people value what they are getting to me makes sense. But are you under appreciating what we have? A health services that costs significantly less than other nation - like Germany - but does a pretty outstanding job.

I suppose the question is, would you be willing to pay more taxes to invest more in the NHS?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

You're misunderstanding me, I like the NHS and don't want to see it privatised but there needs to be a debate on how it's run and funded is all I'm saying. It's increasingly being used as a political instrument and everyone can see there's issues with staffing, infrastructure, digitisation, data privacy, efficiency, procurement, integration with social care etc and no one political party is going to solve it. I'm advocating a full review of it because papering around the cracks isn't really working.

I would pay slightly more tax for a number of things but only if the money is used wisely and not to score poltical points or drive agendas.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think Sweden’s fatalities per million is around 200 where other Scandinavian nations are around 20-30 per million.

That is not to say Sweden is failing. It is more complex. In a global world can nations isolate from each other? Will the world be less global until a vaccine is found? It is highly complex.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

That I find it incredible when people come on here wonderlusting about other countries to beat us with a stick without stating the full picture which doesn’t pain them in such a great light.

I’ve got no issue with the U.K. bashing but if you are going to post things people are also entitled to come back with points of view

I've no problem with debate, just think it sad when people try and twist your words to fit their own agenda

 

[SpurMeUp]

You're misunderstanding me, I like the NHS and don't want to see it privatised but there needs to be a debate on how it's run and funded is all I'm saying. It's increasingly being used as a political instrument and everyone can see there's issues with staffing, infrastructure, digitisation, data privacy, efficiency, procurement, integration with social care etc and no one political party is going to solve it. I'm advocating a full review of it because papering around the cracks isn't really working.

I would pay slightly more tax for a number of things but only if the money is used wisely and not to score poltical points or drive agendas.

Maybe you missed it, but NHS reviews are almost more common than a need for PPE. Knowledgeable people who live and work in this sphere everyday advocate letting the experienced people in the NHS get on with the job of running it. They have had review and reform constantly.

A core issue is with no spare capacity or money, they are constantly firefighting which makes reform and improvement hard. However, for the money we spend the NHS is bloomin amazing. We can (and should imo) charge people small amounts relative to their means for services so they respect it more and to raise a few more billion per year. But otherwise you get what you pay for. Do you want higher taxes to pay for a better service?

I do agree about making health (and education) cross-party. Both are too important.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Crab.C.Nesbitt]

You're talking about the variance in a small number. So an overall 4% increase is a 30% increase on a number as small as 13% - that's significant (both colloquially and mathematically).

Fair point!