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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

A lot of labours domestic announcements have been great, if poorly presented. It's their brexit policy that is fudging them. If they made a full on case for a socialist brexit, they'd really be on to something
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
"Full electrification of housing? Cannot be done...your'e crazy." Free national health for all? Are you nuts?" "Are you serious? "A national sewage network?" Imagine where we would all be, if this mindset prevailed? Men of zero vision is the definition of the conservative. Squeeze Amazon et al until the fudging pips squeak.
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Squeeze Amazon, they'll declare all of their profits outside the UK and we'll reduce our tax intake.

If we didn't currently have a telecomms system in the UK I could understand, but obviously not agree with, your stance. Yet that analogy doesn't work because we do have a telecoms system here and it's owned and run by UK pensions and UK shareholders. It employs thousands of people who then all contribute to the Exchequer.

Interesting you mention the NHS. I pay significantly more in tax on the NHS than I do for private healthcare, yet the service I receive is a miniscule fraction of the quality. The system is utterly fudged beyond repair. It was a nice idea, sweet in its nature, but always doomed to fail in the real world.
 
scaramanga said:
Squeeze Amazon, they'll declare all of their profits outside the UK and we'll reduce our tax intake.

If we didn't currently have a telecomms system in the UK I could understand, but obviously not agree with, your stance. Yet that analogy doesn't work because we do have a telecoms system here and it's owned and run by UK pensions and UK shareholders. It employs thousands of people who then all contribute to the Exchequer.

Interesting you mention the NHS. I pay significantly more in tax on the NHS than I do for private healthcare, yet the service I receive is a miniscule fraction of the quality. The system is utterly fudged beyond repair. It was a nice idea, sweet in its nature, but always doomed to fail in the real world.
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Well the Tories are doing everything in their power to doom it. Vote Labour and save the NHS.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Well the Tories are doing everything in their power to doom it. Vote Labour and save the NHS.
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LOL. Nobody can save it. It was fudged under Labour, it was fudged under the Conservatives, it was fudged from birth and should have been aborted long before it became the ginger stepchild of our nation's finances.

The entire notion of it is ridiculous and unworkable. The private sector provides me a far better device for a fraction of the cost.
 
scaramanga said:
I pay significantly more in tax on the NHS than I do for private healthcare, yet the service I receive is a miniscule fraction of the quality.
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Private medical insurance is fine till you get older or develop any big problems.
I was with Bupa till I retired at 52 ish then it started to rocket in price. I had no claims either believe it or not no illness or hospitalisation of any note. My stepdad had a quad bypass on Bupa and Bupa tripled his payments in the next five years he could not afford the £20k+ pa.
Bupa and some of the rest are great until your not.
 
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scaramanga said:
LOL. Nobody can save it. It was fudged under Labour, it was fudged under the Conservatives, it was fudged from birth and should have been aborted long before it became the ginger stepchild of our nation's finances.

The entire notion of it is ridiculous and unworkable. The private sector provides me a far better device for a fraction of the cost.
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That’s anecdotal to your experience. The NHS is very very far from ridiculous and unworkable. It’s not going anywhere, it’s the political system that is fudging it, not the NHS itself.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
StephenH said:
Private medical insurance is fine till you get older or develop any big problems.
I was with Bupa till I retired at 52 ish then it started to rocket in price. I had no claims either believe it or not no illness or hospitalisation of any note. My stepdad had a quad bypass on Bupa and Bupa tripled his paments in the next five years he could not afford the £20k+ pa.
Bupa and some of the rest are great until your not.
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It might surprise you to know that I'm not particularly against state funded healthcare, it's just state provided healthcare that is destined to go to brick.

If I got the value for money from my taxes that I do my private expenditure, I wouldn't have a problem at all.
 
AuroRaman said:
That’s anecdotal to your experience. The NHS is very very far from ridiculous and unworkable. It’s not going anywhere, it’s the political system that is fudging it, not the NHS itself.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
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It's not just my experience, it's that of everyone I know who has private healthcare. They all receive better service for a fraction of the cost.

If the NHS is working so well, why is there such a large private healthcare industry?
 
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scaramanga said:
It's not just my experience, it's that of everyone I know who has private healthcare. They all receive better service for a fraction of the cost.

If the NHS is working so well, why is there such a large private healthcare industry?
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I never said it was 'working so well'.

It was literally set-up so every single citizen of this country could have healthcare without being crippled by debt to afford it. It's not a business, you're comparing a business-led industry with an institution that is doing its absolute best to provide for the population in spite of the systems around it trying to bring it to it's knees.
 
AuroRaman said:
I never said it was 'working so well'.

It was literally set-up so every single citizen of this country could have healthcare without being crippled by debt to afford it. It's not a business, you're comparing a business-led industry with an institution that is doing its absolute best to provide for the population in spite of the systems around it trying to bring it to it's knees.
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See my post two above this.

If you look around the world it seems to be the best combination of quality and cost to do things that way.

Whilst you may see the NHS not being a business as an excuse for its weakness, I see it as a cause.
 
scaramanga said:
See my post two above this.

If you look around the world it seems to be the best combination of quality and cost to do things that way.

Whilst you may see the NHS not being a business as an excuse for its weakness, I see it as a cause.
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I can get on board with the state-funded v state provided argument, it’s surprisingly uncommon knowledge that some of the NHS is already privatised whilst still in the overall care of the government.

But I still think your ire is misdirected at the institution of the NHS when it should be directed at the political and societal systems that are creating weaknesses within it.

I also think comparing private-funded healthcare to the service the NHS provides is disingenuous. You’re not getting shinier, better doctors or machines for the most part. They’re the same ones utilised by the NHS for people that can’t afford private healthcare, you just get to skip the queue.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
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AuroRaman said:
I can get on board with the state-funded v state provided argument, it’s surprisingly uncommon knowledge that some of the NHS is already privatised whilst still in the overall care of the government.

But I still think your ire is misdirected at the institution of the NHS when it should be directed at the political and societal systems that are creating weaknesses within it.

I also think comparing private-funded healthcare to the service the NHS provides is disingenuous. You’re not getting shinier, better doctors or machines for the most part. They’re the same ones utilised by the NHS for people that can’t afford private healthcare, you just get to skip the queue.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
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And have nicer decor in the rooms and corridors. And not have to sit next to common folk. Jesus...the NHS has had the brick kicked out of it by the Tories. That, coupled with an increasingly service-driven service-demanding society which runs to the doctors at the first sign of a cold and demands ER care is a perfect storm of brick.
 
thfcsteff said:
And have nicer decor in the rooms and corridors. And not have to sit next to common folk. Jesus...the NHS has had the brick kicked out of it by the Tories. That, coupled with an increasingly service-driven service-demanding society which runs to the doctors at the first sign of a cold and demands ER care is a perfect storm of brick.
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What it needs is evolution - rather than major changes. People in the organisation know what needs to be improved. They know the inefficiencies but are hamstrung by firefighting. You can't easily make improvements when all your time has to go on patient care or emergencies. A bit of a catch 22.

@Scaramanaga re "I pay significantly more in tax on the NHS than I do for private healthcare, yet the service I receive is a miniscule fraction of the quality."

Is this true? What do you pay in tax vs private cover? Private obviously doesn't cover emergencies or GPs? Many private services are delivered via the NHS too.
 
AuroRaman said:
I can get on board with the state-funded v state provided argument, it’s surprisingly uncommon knowledge that some of the NHS is already privatised whilst still in the overall care of the government.

But I still think your ire is misdirected at the institution of the NHS when it should be directed at the political and societal systems that are creating weaknesses within it.

I also think comparing private-funded healthcare to the service the NHS provides is disingenuous. You’re not getting shinier, better doctors or machines for the most part. They’re the same ones utilised by the NHS for people that can’t afford private healthcare, you just get to skip the queue.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
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When it comes to healthcare, skipping the queue is one of the most important factors. That, private rooms (what kind of barbaric, Victorian workhouse kind of system would have grown adults share rooms?) and more time with specialists when you do see them.

There's also a very fundamental value for money argument. I pay more than most (less than many) but have to receive the same bog standard level of treatment all the unwashed, mobility scooter riding, New Look wearing masses who spend their days fisting Greggs into their mouths and failing to wash properly. That's simply not right.
 
SpurMeUp said:
What it needs is evolution - rather than major changes. People in the organisation know what needs to be improved. They know the inefficiencies but are hamstrung by firefighting. You can't easily make improvements when all your time has to go on patient care or emergencies. A bit of a catch 22.

@Scaramanaga re "I pay significantly more in tax on the NHS than I do for private healthcare, yet the service I receive is a miniscule fraction of the quality."

Is this true? What do you pay in tax vs private cover? Private obviously doesn't cover emergencies or GPs? Many private services are delivered via the NHS too.
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My private medical insurance costs around £1800pa. Obviously I don't pay that, it's a company benefit and I pay the tax on it so I pay less than half. £1800 is the cost to insure me medically for a year though.

A handy breakdown of what every type of spending costs the taxpayer is here:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ur-hard-earned-money-really-goes-7578146.html
This has a slightly higher estimate:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16744819
and the government uses 19% as a health figure:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...c-spending-was-calculated-in-your-tax-summary

Current UK median earnings are £28,667, meaning tax paid of around £5.6K pa. I'm not sure how you'd go about calculating their total tax burden when you take into account VAT, fuel duty and all the other form of robbery which our government deems to be required. I've seen estimates that the total tax burden on the average earner is closer to £9K and that doesn't fail the sense test. So that means the average paid employee pays over £1.7Kpa for the NHS (using the govt's 19% figure for health spend).

Without getting into too much detail about what I earn, it's safe to say that it's more than the median. So my spend on private healthcare is significantly less than my spend on public health.

Edit:
My total family cost of private healthcare is a little under £4K and should probably be considered as the relevant figure if we were to assume my wife didn't want to work and mine was the only income. Figures still stand up to the same scrutiny though.
 
scaramanga said:
When it comes to healthcare, skipping the queue is one of the most important factors. That, private rooms (what kind of barbaric, Victorian workhouse kind of system would have grown adults share rooms?) and more time with specialists when you do see them.

There's also a very fundamental value for money argument. I pay more than most (less than many) but have to receive the same bog standard level of treatment all the unwashed, mobility scooter riding, New Look wearing masses who spend their days fisting Greggs into their mouths and failing to wash properly. That's simply not right.
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You could have more than halved your word count by simply stating ‘Northerners’.








Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk
 
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