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Harry Winks

Bedfordspurs said:
He passes forwards plenty

The same thing was bought up vs city and he played something like 20 passes forward
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He passes forward more than Sissoko. He also makes more defensive contributions. And I believe carries/dribbles more as well.

He does more than his midfield partner every game.

And yet he gets nothing but stick while Sissoko has people queuing up to defend him.

This isnt intended to start a great Sissoko debate - its illustrative of perceptions.

And its setting up the situation to ask the question - what happens to our midfield when Winks is partnered with someone who can do as much (or ideally more!) than he does?
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
He passes forward more than Sissoko. He also makes more defensive contributions. And I believe carries/dribbles more as well.

He does more than his midfield partner every game.

And yet he gets nothing but stick while Sissoko has people queuing up to defend him.

This isnt intended to start a great Sissoko debate - its illustrative of perceptions.

And its setting up the situation to ask the question - what happens to our midfield when Winks is partnered with someone who can do as much (or ideally more!) than he does?
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Well I’m a sissoko fan and think he was immense last season...

But last season was arguably a flop if all things are considered (and I was at the Etihad for that glorious night as well as Madrid)

But my logic is if you have two complimentary midfielders like we had with Dembele and Dier for example it allows the attack to thrive more

For me, a player who keeps the ball moving and therefore dragging the opposition out like winks, combined with a dribbler and driver in NDombele is better than having one of them with a guy who chases everything but doesn’t have the creative elements the others have...

Sissoko has his place and will play plenty but I’d like to see our better technical players given a chance
 
I'm a massive fan of Winks - indeed, you'll see it was me who started this thread. But personally I think he has definitely regressed over time, in terms of being far more safe and conservative on the ball.

However, I'm just hoping that a) that's purely a consequence of him being asked to play too deep, and b) that in the medium to long term Poch's plan is for him to play as a more advanced CM, with more protection behind him and more license to get forward. In the short-term I'd like to see him playing alongside Dier at times, to free him up a bit in that way. I still have hope that he'll flourish in that role.
 
Expecting him to be benched I guess. I agree... He's not good enough
Modric THFC said:
What are people expecting from him?

He's not Luka or Iniesta.

He's not gonna play defensive splitting pass after pass. He's a Dier replacement. He's a bit better on the ball than Dier.

He's not an attacking midfielder.

He plays the same as Busquets at Barcelona. He's a pivot. He gets the ball and passes it on hoping to pivot an attack from one side of the pitch to the other where they is now more space. That means sideways passes.
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Sent from my SM-T835 using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Couldnt agree more.

I think Winks is class. And while I think he could be playing better, I believe his performances are being rather unfairly derided.

I also agree, play him with a better partner and things will be very much improved.
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Agree as well. I didn’t see the first 2 games of the season, but was aware of the stick Winks was getting so paid particular attention to him on Sunday. As you say, he wasn’t great, he could play (a lot) better, but he was so far from being one of our worst players on the day. He did pass forward when he could, it was clear, to me at least, that the movement was terrible in front of him.

He’s pretty much the 4th deepest player on the pitch when we have possession (Hugo, 2 CB’s and then Winks). He’s not going to be making assists too often! He’s playing the Carrick role, it seems to be the most misunderstood role at Spurs, everyone from Carrick, Modric, Dembele (to a lesser extent Dier) and now Winks has come under criticism for the same things. The full backs, front 4 and sometimes even the less disciplined CM partner need to take responsibility for creativity as well and probably more so.

Just to book end this, I’m not saying Winks is playing well currently.
 
Exactly.

He is doing his job, a job that is severely hampered when you have no players making runs/space to offer you passing options.

He is keeping possession, progressing the ball when he can, defending - doing what he can, but as that deep lying midfielder there really is only so much he can do.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
He passes forward more than Sissoko. He also makes more defensive contributions. And I believe carries/dribbles more as well.

He does more than his midfield partner every game.

And yet he gets nothing but stick while Sissoko has people queuing up to defend him.

This isnt intended to start a great Sissoko debate - its illustrative of perceptions.

And its setting up the situation to ask the question - what happens to our midfield when Winks is partnered with someone who can do as much (or ideally more!) than he does?
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The little white guy in our central midfield is getting judged against what Modric did.
And the big black guy in our midfield is getting judged like he's a centre half up from the back.

He will end up disgustingly hounded out of the club like Ryan Mason was.
 
Raziel said:
Come on mate, you and @Southstand323 ?

- Winks is being carried, he did nothing that an academy player couldn't do, waste time on ball, pass sideways, neat triangles, fail to protect the back four, fail to distribute the ball quickly. And he's doing it in a position we can't afford a passenger.
- Jenas got stick because he never (other than the occasional game against the Scum) played to the level of his talent (something he quite regularly admits himself)
- Lucas and Son win matches .. explains a bit of why they get a pass

What is Winks role? DM, CM, AM? I don't understand because he's doing none of it well

Poch used Mason and Bentaleb in Winks position and both (at least Mason) were more limited players, but they did a job because the recirculated the ball quickly and more often than not forward. Winks is not doing that, he seems to playing a "don't fudge it up" game vs. trying to help us win, and this isn't about creativity, this is about understanding you are playing against limited opposition, take a risk, push forward, get the ball to someone who can pass if you can't.
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Don't think i was clear. so i'll try and explain. i was at the game on sunday, and i dont think anyone played well, winks included. But i wasnt watching and thinking to myself that winks was always choosing to play safe over more expansive options. The movement was non existent for most of the game from all the front players. It was awful to watch. It was congested, slow, the full backs who are usually the out ball offered nothing going forward (until sissoko went to RB). I don't think Winks was worse than anyone else on the pitch. To blame him for the performance is a little unfair. As a team there was no cohesion or aggresion in our attacking play, as much down to the lack of movement as the supposed lack of wanting to play the forward pass
 
Raziel said:
Come on mate, you and @Southstand323 ?

- Winks is being carried, he did nothing that an academy player couldn't do, waste time on ball, pass sideways, neat triangles, fail to protect the back four, fail to distribute the ball quickly. And he's doing it in a position we can't afford a passenger.
- Jenas got stick because he never (other than the occasional game against the Scum) played to the level of his talent (something he quite regularly admits himself)
- Lucas and Son win matches .. explains a bit of why they get a pass

What is Winks role? DM, CM, AM? I don't understand because he's doing none of it well

Poch used Mason and Bentaleb in Winks position and both (at least Mason) were more limited players, but they did a job because the recirculated the ball quickly and more often than not forward. Winks is not doing that, he seems to playing a "don't fudge it up" game vs. trying to help us win, and this isn't about creativity, this is about understanding you are playing against limited opposition, take a risk, push forward, get the ball to someone who can pass if you can't.
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And also just to add i don't think hes being carried at all. I think hes being asked to pick the ball up from the back 4 and move it around the pitch. There's just a lack of zip to the whole team at the moment, and hes included. I hope it was just an off day because we will get murdered on sunday if we play like that.
 
Southstand323 said:
Don't think i was clear. so i'll try and explain. i was at the game on sunday, and i dont think anyone played well, winks included. But i wasnt watching and thinking to myself that winks was always choosing to play safe over more expansive options. The movement was non existent for most of the game from all the front players. It was awful to watch. It was congested, slow, the full backs who are usually the out ball offered nothing going forward (until sissoko went to RB). I don't think Winks was worse than anyone else on the pitch. To blame him for the performance is a little unfair. As a team there was no cohesion or aggresion in our attacking play, as much down to the lack of movement as the supposed lack of wanting to play the forward pass
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I agree and I think the problems are very much team-wide atm and the causes are probably/potentially as much off the field as they are on it.
 
Southstand323 said:
Don't think i was clear. so i'll try and explain. i was at the game on sunday, and i dont think anyone played well, winks included. But i wasnt watching and thinking to myself that winks was always choosing to play safe over more expansive options. The movement was non existent for most of the game from all the front players. It was awful to watch. It was congested, slow, the full backs who are usually the out ball offered nothing going forward (until sissoko went to RB). I don't think Winks was worse than anyone else on the pitch. To blame him for the performance is a little unfair. As a team there was no cohesion or aggresion in our attacking play, as much down to the lack of movement as the supposed lack of wanting to play the forward pass
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That is the way i saw the game as well.
 
Southstand323 said:
Don't think i was clear. so i'll try and explain. i was at the game on sunday, and i dont think anyone played well, winks included. But i wasnt watching and thinking to myself that winks was always choosing to play safe over more expansive options. The movement was non existent for most of the game from all the front players. It was awful to watch. It was congested, slow, the full backs who are usually the out ball offered nothing going forward (until sissoko went to RB). I don't think Winks was worse than anyone else on the pitch. To blame him for the performance is a little unfair. As a team there was no cohesion or aggresion in our attacking play, as much down to the lack of movement as the supposed lack of wanting to play the forward pass
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And if a 29 years old Scott Parker was in the team doing that no one would have a problem.
But just because some youth team 'experts' wrote blog articles 3 years ago about how Winks is the new Modric/Iniesta people are judging him on that.
 
Modric THFC said:
The little white guy in our central midfield is getting judged against what Modric did.
And the big black guy in our midfield is getting judged like he's a centre half up from the back.

He will end up disgustingly hounded out of the club like Ryan Mason was.
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Its probably fair to say they are judged to different standards, which says it all really.

Not that I was trying to set up that argument, rather pointing out that even though he is supposedly terrible - he is doing more than his partner.
 
Southstand323 said:
Don't think i was clear. so i'll try and explain. i was at the game on sunday, and i dont think anyone played well, winks included. But i wasnt watching and thinking to myself that winks was always choosing to play safe over more expansive options. The movement was non existent for most of the game from all the front players. It was awful to watch. It was congested, slow, the full backs who are usually the out ball offered nothing going forward (until sissoko went to RB). I don't think Winks was worse than anyone else on the pitch. To blame him for the performance is a little unfair. As a team there was no cohesion or aggresion in our attacking play, as much down to the lack of movement as the supposed lack of wanting to play the forward pass
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The biggest issue was shape. We needed to stretch the game, use width and get the ball wide early. We failed to do that. I think Poch has to wear that one. What I want to see from Winks in matches where the movement ahead is stifled by deep sitting teams, is him attacking the channels and carrying the ball to create movement. He has the ability and he has the nous. He is playing well within himself.
 
Modric THFC said:
Because people have no idea what his role is.
Same way Modric got stick for 2 seasons because they were told when he joined he was a number 10. "Where are his goals and assists!?!"
Same way Jenas got stick because no one understands midfielders.

Unless Winks sprays pointless 'diags' around they wont be happy.

Son and Lucas where hopeless on saturday made no runs and just waiting for someone else to create something. Yet Son can do no wrong and Lucas scored against Ajax.
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But where do you expect Son and Lucas to move too? What runs can they make once the lines are set? Son made several very early runs which were killed by the ponderous movement out from the back. Indeed, tactically you could say that Lloris should've resorted to more kicks and Toby resorted to more long balls fast from the back to catch them. Instead we tried to play it out from the back against a team not fussed about sitting so deep. In those situations you need your midfielders to be brave.

I agree that Sissoko was ineffective, but so was Winks. Compare how many times he moved into areas around the box with any of Emirates Marketing Project's midfielders in similar matches. We need to be braver and more confident in these matches, and that comes from the dressing room. We are also sorely missing Dele, who makes so many ghost runs people don't see which open up defenses like this, and we are missing Llorente as an option to switch styles too. But we still have more than enough to beat sides like this. We missed two sitters as it was, plus were denied a stonewall pen. We could've won easily with more courage.
 
Yeah, just getting a cross or shot in and pouncing on the ricochet would have created more than the dawdling passing we managed. We missed Llorente in that regard too.
 
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