Racism on this forum

[Craig_J]

Woohoo! I've never been a straw man before.

It's really no different to what you've said. It's exactly the same. A collection of the most hateful things Tommy Robinson has said is no different to what you have said.

And I extremely doubt any member of this forum, including yourself (hopefully), would argue Tommy Robinson isn't a racist.

 

[scaramanga]

It's really no different to what you've said. It's exactly the same. A collection of the most hateful things Tommy Robinson has said is no different to what you have said.

And I extremely doubt any member of this forum, including yourself (hopefully), would argue Tommy Robinson isn't a racist.

So saying the same non-racist things as a racist makes one also a racist?

I'll bet you've used a fork before - racists use forks too you awful, awful person. I'll bet you even tie your shoelaces just like those racists - it's all coming out now isn't it? Any tenuous link to any racist clearly implicates you in the same manner!

You see, there's a very good reason he says those things when pretending not to be racist - it's because those things are not racist comments and so he can hide behind them. The very reason he does so is that hatred of religion is not hatred of race and is entirely acceptable to those who understand the distinction.

 

[thfcsteff]

I disagree.

Religion is only considered a related group because, in order to further their own cause, religious groups have managed to sneak themselves in as a protected group, like age, gender, race, etc. But religion stands out from the others as it's a choice. That doesn't deserve protection, just like any other choice.

You're simply choosing to ignore the current need for care when expressing oneself in the modern era. If I see people wearing MAGA hats, the fact remains I identify them as being hardcore Trump supporters who also err on the side of prejudice against pretty much anyone who isn't a shoe-in for the Leave It Too Beaver remake. So if a MAGA hat wearer told me they were simply showing a bit of US pride and that the context taken is my fault, I think they're willfully ignoring modern realities.

I happen to think religion is silly, but unlike you, don't really care as long as it isn't causing harm. Unfortunately, it causes enormous harm when wielded by nations and extremists. But I do believe there are millions who follow their "faiths" peacefully and quietly, and I would rather they were not lumped in with the aggressive extremists.

You say religion is a choice that doesn't deserve protection? I think if we purport to live in a civilized society, everyone's choices should be respected as theirs providing they don't harm anyone. And the vast majority of those who follow religions are peaceful and have little interest in furthering anything other than their own observance of said-faith and whatever is considered necessary to get into the VIP Lounge on expiration. I have no issue whatsoever with that, in fact I would go as far as to say people who believe something is "GHod's will" might very well be sparing themselves and us from a catastrophically bad reaction to a specific situation. If it gives them comfort without harming me, have at it I say!

 

[thfcsteff]

Allowing others to judge only works if one believes that they, either as individuals or a collective, are better capable of judging a situation. Suffice it to say, I've never felt that in my life.

WALOB
I don't believe that last sentence whatsoever, smells of "double-down saloon" to me.

 

[thfcsteff]

So saying the same non-racist things as a racist makes one also a racist?

I'll bet you've used a fork before - racists use forks too you awful, awful person. I'll bet you even tie your shoelaces just like those racists - it's all coming out now isn't it? Any tenuous link to any racist clearly implicates you in the same manner!

You see, there's a very good reason he says those things when pretending not to be racist - it's because those things are not racist comments and so he can hide behind them. The very reason he does so is that hatred of religion is not hatred of race and is entirely acceptable to those who understand the distinction.

No no no. Tommy Robinson doesn't "hate religion"...only religion which doesn't involve Christianity. Tommy Robinson doesn't hide behind them very well because they're about as secure a hiding spot as rice paper umbrella in a hail storm. In your case, hatred of religion is not per se "racist" but in the modern climate, one has to understand the temperature, potential contexts and act/express accordingly otherwise they will be judged as whatever. You can retort with how stupid the world is or whatever, it won't change the fact that we are where are and this is how it is. So you either choose to be aware of that, or you go about your business saying "fudge them it's on them if they take things that way"...

 

[SpurMeUp]

Allowing others to judge only works if one believes that they, either as individuals or a collective, are better capable of judging a situation. Suffice it to say, I've never felt that in my life.

Thing is you are quite frequently wrong. Whether backing Boeing max8 planes as safe, re. what is accepted as non-prejudicial language, whether one Moussa Sissoko is any good...

As soon as you read these you’re thinking of ways to justify your previous (wrong) assertions. Doggedly arguing them out. It’s far more cathartic for the individual and the board collective in this instance, to hold your hands up. You would prove a whole lot more this way than trying to win an argument.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[r-u-s-x]

So saying the same non-racist things as a racist makes one also a racist?

Go into a bar and a load of people are being racist by calling him a bomber, pan to the back Scara doing the same .. They are all racist except that one who is making a point about antisemitism.

 

[treepits]

I agree that religion is an option, as is being stubborn on this point!...I think a lot of your posts are very funny, and I often think we have similar views on lots of topics.

But, on this, I really think you need to just keep your weird stance to yourself.

I feel that this topic shouldn't define you

This thread should have ended here

 

[DTA]

@scaramanga a lot of people who have a great deal of time for you, have said things that you should listen to.

But you self justify by clinging to the mantra that it's your hatred of religion that allows you to say those things.

No one will change your hatred for religion, even though you express that very uneven handedly (But that's another point for another day)

So how about this as a way to move forward:

You can't respect peoples religion (for your own reasons) but you can respect their culture?

And as so, you will refrain from using language or retoric that would potentially cause members of that culture distress or harm, or further Thier otherisation by the far right by continuing and contributing to a discourse that is inherently bigoted and puposefully devisive?

How about that old chap? you can still hate religion... But respect culture? We could just end it here mate. As at heart because of our love for spurs we are all Yids anyway.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Allowing others to judge only works if one believes that they, either as individuals or a collective, are better capable of judging a situation. Suffice it to say, I've never felt that in my life.

Top trolling.....bruv

 

[scaramanga]

Go into a bar and a load of people are being racist by calling him a bomber, pan to the back Scara doing the same .. They are all racist except that one who is making a point about antisemitism.

Now you get it.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Peaceful they may be, but they are helping advance and spread religion, which needs to be stopped.

Religion can't be belittled. It's already the lowest form of thought.

I’m not remotely religious. I come from Ireland where the Catholic Church have caused all sorts of chaos over the years. However, in every religion, I see principles that I agree with. Most religions promote a way of life, in terms of how to treat others, that I believe is very difficult to live up to but we should all aspire to. Religions have helped people to live better lives in this way so I absolutely respect everyone’s right to believe in whatever they want as long as they don’t push it on others.

Religion isn’t the lowest form of thought. Discrimination is. Tarring an entire nation, race, religion as being the same as the worst elements of that group is a lot worse than believing in GHod or Allah or whoever. That’s what you’ve done and while I love most of your posts and your wind ups, this one is pretty offensive and is going to cost this forum one of its best and most popular posters.

 

[glasgowspur]

Not trying to be flippant but here's maybe a good way out of this, bombing is a type diving into a swimming pool.
Salahs a diver=bomber
That's what you meant isn't it @scaramanga?
We were all just to daft to see what you meant you clever bugger.

 

[DTA]

Not trying to be flippant but here's maybe a good way out of this, bombing is a type diving into a swimming pool.
Salahs a diver=bomber
That's what you meant isn't it @scaramanga?
We were all just to daft to see what you meant you clever bugger.

Hahaha

 

[Craig_J]

So saying the same non-racist things as a racist makes one also a racist?

I'll bet you've used a fork before - racists use forks too you awful, awful person. I'll bet you even tie your shoelaces just like those racists - it's all coming out now isn't it? Any tenuous link to any racist clearly implicates you in the same manner!

You see, there's a very good reason he says those things when pretending not to be racist - it's because those things are not racist comments and so he can hide behind them. The very reason he does so is that hatred of religion is not hatred of race and is entirely acceptable to those who understand the distinction.

So you agree Tommy Robinson is a racist? Well he's made no comment that's overstepped the boundaries of inflaming hate than you have. If you could find one I'd much appreciate it. He's never been convicted of anything to do with racism. If he's said something more racist than you, or has one thing that makes him more racist than you what is it?

Point is you wouldn't be able to make one because he's kept the same line as you have. Do you therefore retract your statement and say he's not racist? If so, you're an idiot. If not, you need to accept what you've said is wrong - because you've been an idiot.

You make this point about Jews being both an ethnicity and a religion. But 74% of Muslims in the UK are of Arab/ Asian ethnicity. Nigh on every popular cultural reference to a Muslim you will see is of an Arab/ Asian. Nigh on every media story about a Muslim is an Arab/Asian. Nigh on everybodys first thought when it comes to Islam is of an Arab/Asian. You'd think you'd have the social awareness yourself to notice that its an incredibly socially insensitive thing to say. Especially when the group you are marginalising and condescending constitute 1 in 20 people in the country you reside in and probably more on this forum.

The fact you say:

"You see, there's a very good reason he says those things when pretending not to be racist - it's because those things are not racist so he can hide behind them.

sums it up really. You should look closer to home.

 

[Craig_J]

So saying the same non-racist things as a racist makes one also a racist?

I'll bet you've used a fork before - racists use forks too you awful, awful person. I'll bet you even tie your shoelaces just like those racists - it's all coming out now isn't it? Any tenuous link to any racist clearly implicates you in the same manner!

You see, there's a very good reason he says those things when pretending not to be racist - it's because those things are not racist comments and so he can hide behind them. The very reason he does so is that hatred of religion is not hatred of race and is entirely acceptable to those who understand the distinction.

I'd also point you to this which took 2 seconds to find on wikipidea

Early-teen marriage was possible in Judaism. Babylonian rabbis encouraged early marriage as a means of legally channeling the male libido.[74] According to the Talmud, a father is commanded not to marry his daughter to anyone until she grows up and says, "I want this one".[75] A marriage that takes place without the consent of the girl is not an effective legal marriage.[76]

Despite the young threshold for marriage, a large age gap between the spouses was opposed,[77] and, in particular, marrying one's young daughter to an old man was declared as reprehensible as forcing her into prostitution.[78]

A ketannah (literally meaning "little [one]") was any girl between the age of 3 years and that of 12 years plus one day;[79] she was subject to her father's authority, and he could arrange a marriage for her without her agreement.[79] However, after reaching the age of maturity, she would have to agree to the marriage to be considered as married. If the father was dead or missing, the brothers of the ketannah, collectively, had the right to arrange a marriage for her, as had her mother.[79] In these situations, a ketannah would always have the right to annul her marriage, even if it was the first.[80]



So I imagine from now on you'll be referring to Jews as paedophiles. I also expect to see you referring to Jews as bombers, given the extent to which they have bombed the brick out of Palestine. And, I would hope, Christians to given sexual abuse scandals and 'One Nation under GHod' destroying the middle east.

Or you could just accept religion has lots of outdated concepts which are in the past, and which the overwhelming majority of the world's population suitably ignores.

 

[LutonSpurs]

I have been on many versions of this site for over 10 years and I know I can call Scara a massive clam and he won't flutter an eyelid, and I think he is one. I also know he has a profound dislike of the faith I follow. I genuinely am not bothered as I am allowed to call him a clam and and stay on the site and he can say all the nonsense Sam Harris stuff he has picked up from the odd podcast. It is how it works. We can dislike a load of stuff about each other and still not want to harm each other. Which is what I like about open conversations on forums like this.

 

[Craig_J]

Thing is you are quite frequently wrong. Whether backing Boeing max8 planes as safe, re. what is accepted as non-prejudicial language, whether one Moussa Sissoko is any good...

As soon as you read these you’re thinking of ways to justify your previous (wrong) assertions. Doggedly arguing them out. It’s far more cathartic for the individual and the board collective in this instance, to hold your hands up. You would prove a whole lot more this way than trying to win an argument.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

NPD knows no bounds

 

[scaramanga]

You're simply choosing to ignore the current need for care when expressing oneself in the modern era. If I see people wearing MAGA hats, the fact remains I identify them as being hardcore Trump supporters who also err on the side of prejudice against pretty much anyone who isn't a shoe-in for the Leave It Too Beaver remake. So if a MAGA hat wearer told me they were simply showing a bit of US pride and that the context taken is my fault, I think they're willfully ignoring modern realities.

I happen to think religion is silly, but unlike you, don't really care as long as it isn't causing harm. Unfortunately, it causes enormous harm when wielded by nations and extremists. But I do believe there are millions who follow their "faiths" peacefully and quietly, and I would rather they were not lumped in with the aggressive extremists.

You say religion is a choice that doesn't deserve protection? I think if we purport to live in a civilized society, everyone's choices should be respected as theirs providing they don't harm anyone. And the vast majority of those who follow religions are peaceful and have little interest in furthering anything other than their own observance of said-faith and whatever is considered necessary to get into the VIP Lounge on expiration. I have no issue whatsoever with that, in fact I would go as far as to say people who believe something is "GHod's will" might very well be sparing themselves and us from a catastrophically bad reaction to a specific situation. If it gives them comfort without harming me, have at it I say!

This isn't correct in two ways.

1. We, as a society, regularly decide to limit or prevent individual harmless action for the greater good. Speeding doesn't kill anyone except when drivers are incapable, but we make it illegal for all. If I don't recycle or use too much electricity it doesn't damage the planet at all, but we make wholesale changes because the cumulative effect of everyone's harmless actions is harmful to society.
2. Participation in religion isn't an entirely harmless action. Every single Catholic who donates to their church or pays to visit a religious artifact (can't believe they get away with charging their sheep for this) is contributing to a society that protects child rapists from being discovered and prosecuted. Not only that, but supplies them with a brainwashed cult of children to abuse.

I call myself an atheist* but if the atheist movement started on large scale anti-Semitism or cover ups of child abuse then I would refuse to associate myself with that group. Permanently. I don't want to be associated a group like that - unfortunately, religious types seem all too happy to ignore that side.




Technically I'm not, but it's a very fine line and not particularly relevant to the discussion.

 

[scaramanga]

So you agree Tommy Robinson is a racist? Well he's made no comment that's overstepped the boundaries of inflaming hate than you have. If you could find one I'd much appreciate it. He's never been convicted of anything to do with racism. If he's said something more racist than you, or has one thing that makes him more racist than you what is it?

Point is you wouldn't be able to make one because he's kept the same line as you have. Do you therefore retract your statement and say he's not racist? If so, you're an idiot. If not, you need to accept what you've said is wrong - because you've been an idiot.

You make this point about Jews being both an ethnicity and a religion. But 74% of Muslims in the UK are of Arab/ Asian ethnicity. Nigh on every popular cultural reference to a Muslim you will see is of an Arab/ Asian. Nigh on every media story about a Muslim is an Arab/Asian. Nigh on everybodys first thought when it comes to Islam is of an Arab/Asian. You'd think you'd have the social awareness yourself to notice that its an incredibly socially insensitive thing to say. Especially when the group you are marginalising and condescending constitute 1 in 20 people in the country you reside in and probably more on this forum.

The fact you say:



sums it up really. You should look closer to home.

If Tommy Robinson or any of his organisations were willing to insult other religions as much as they do Islam, then I'd have to concede that he and they probably aren't racist. The fact that they focus solely on Islam suggests (but not proves) that he and they likely are racist.