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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Parklaner81 said:
I'm not sure I agree. I think they'd be happy enough with this outcome - it's a decent one for them - but my feeling is that they're sniffing the chance for something 'better', ie. a softer brexit still or even a complete reversal of the referendum result. Talking to Corbyn certainly fits with the former, while I also think at this point they'd happily gamble on the latter. I'm not sure that's always necessarily been so, and this is where I detect a subtle change in their position.

Just my perception of things of course.
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Agree that the EU would love us to reverse our decision/go the soft-Brexit route. They don't strike me as gamblers though, I honestly think they'd be quite happy for May's deal to pass -- which averts a no-deal scenario -- and then move on to the next phase.
 
the dza said:
Agree that the EU would love us to reverse our decision/go the soft-Brexit route. They don't strike me as gamblers though, I honestly think they'd be quite happy for May's deal to pass -- which averts a no-deal scenario -- and then move on to the next phase.
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They had the opportunity via the extension request to essentially box us into a 'May's deal vs. No deal' scenario. They originally suggested they were going to do this, but then the possibility of the longer extension emerged.

I interpreted this as a shrewd calculation on their part. Had they forced May's deal vs. No deal, I suspect May's deal would have passed. But instead, the field of options has widened. Maybe they didn't fancy the outright gamble on no deal, but I suspect they were more driven by the possibility that they can improve on May's deal (from their point of view), because as far as I can see, they've actually reduced the likelihood of it passing.
 
Parklaner81 said:
They had the opportunity via the extension request to essentially box us into a 'May's deal vs. No deal' scenario. They originally suggested they were going to do this, but then the possibility of the longer extension emerged.

I interpreted this as a shrewd calculation on their part. Had they forced May's deal vs. No deal, I suspect May's deal would have passed. But instead, the field of options has widened. Maybe they didn't fancy the outright gamble on no deal, but I suspect they were more driven by the possibility that they can improve on May's deal (from their point of view), because as far as I can see, they've actually reduced the likelihood of it passing.
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Or they feared no deal was more likely outcome than forcing May's deal.

In order of importance /preference it seems to me its
Four pillars >remain >soft brexit >May's deal >no deal

It seems that stability /getting a conclusion is moving no deal higher up the preferences, we will see in the next few weeks where we are.
 
r-u-s-x said:
Or they feared no deal was more likely outcome than forcing May's deal.

In order of importance /preference it seems to me its
Four pillars >remain >soft brexit >May's deal >no deal

It seems that stability /getting a conclusion is moving no deal higher up the preferences, we will see in the next few weeks where we are.
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What would be interesting is if May said 'if you don't want my deal.....then I'm done'

Who wants the poisoned chalice?

Would the next prime minister please stand up!

(Someone please insert the Homer Simpson gif please):D
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
What would be interesting is if May said 'if you don't want my deal.....then I'm done'

Who wants the poisoned chalice?

Would the next prime minister please stand up!

(Someone please insert the Homer Simpson gif please):D
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She must be on a bet, 50k for every week she hangs on or something, anyone with a shred of pride would be embarrassed to keep going the way she has.
 
r-u-s-x said:
She must be on a bet, 50k for every week she hangs on or something, anyone with a shred of pride would be embarrassed to keep going the way she has.
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I can't stand May, that goes back to when she was in the home office.

However, I respect her current position - she is a good parliamentarian and is doing her utmost to keep the nasty clutches of Gove, Boris and the ERG away from no.10 or any real control right now.
She knew Brexit was bust a long time ago. But didn't surrender to the vultures.
 
Is Brexit undermining our UK parlimentry system!?

Or are 'we' taking back control? Now MPs have some control, but still rely on May to take anything they decide to the EU. What a rudderless mess! MPs won't have an easy consensus. We don't want a solution which is born out of desperation - a bad deal just to get it done. A GE or referendum is increasingly likely as our parlimentry system twists itself in knots. A GE seems to solve little however, and a referendum is shyed away from as its diversive (for the 2 main parties mainly imo).

However a referedum is the only answer and the sooner they get on with it the better.
 
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monkeybarry said:
I can't stand May, that goes back to when she was in the home office.

However, I respect her current position - she is a good parliamentarian and is doing her utmost to keep the nasty clutches of Gove, Boris and the ERG away from no.10 or any real control right now.
She knew Brexit was bust a long time ago. But didn't surrender to the vultures.
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She put herself in this position by purposely kicking it down the road thinking she could pressure parliament to go with her plan. She has been playing that game since September. I don't agree with the way she approached it at the outset but since then she has been playing this game.
 
r-u-s-x said:
She put herself in this position by purposely kicking it down the road thinking she could pressure parliament to go with her plan. She has been playing that game since September. I don't agree with the way she approached it at the outset but since then she has been playing this game.
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She has been trying to ballance too many different positions and demands. The ERG, the unity of her party, the EU, jobs, business interests. Things which are not compatible, so it is no wonder she has ended up in this mess. I guess the criticism of her is this was predictable. But it is almost like the nation had to be put through all this, as you couldn't make an executive decision to do the right thing as it would 'undermine democracy'. There is only one solution - get exit options infront of the people. Let the nation weight them up. If remain is judged to be the best option with all the information so beit, it is far from conclusive that it would be. No one but no one should shy away from openly and fairly evaluating the options open to the UK, and letting the people decide. The ramifactions of brexit are decades long, affect the position of the UK in the world order, effect how much freedom our younger people have, and how we trade. Politicians clearly can't get this sorted. Once ready it needs taking out their hands, and everyone needs freedom to weigh up the options. Something which has not been done yet - the first vote kicked off the process - the second one determines how we as a nation go forward with all the information to hand.
 
Interesting point raised on Newsnight regarding the tone of cabinet meeting for the last few months and the lanugauge focus heavily on consequence for the Tory party rather than the govt or the country.
 
Oliver letwin, literally the inventor of the poll tax, strikes a blow helping the neoliberal globalist elite get their foot back on the necks of the people
 
SpurMeUp said:
She has been trying to ballance too many different positions and demands. The ERG, the unity of her party, the EU, jobs, business interests. Things which are not compatible, so it is no wonder she has ended up in this mess. I guess the criticism of her is this was predictable. But it is almost like the nation had to be put through all this, as you couldn't make an executive decision to do the right thing as it would 'undermine democracy'. There is only one solution - get exit options infront of the people. Let the nation weight them up. If remain is judged to be the best option with all the information so beit, it is far from conclusive that it would be. No one but no one should shy away from openly and fairly evaluating the options open to the UK, and letting the people decide. The ramifactions of brexit are decades long, affect the position of the UK in the world order, effect how much freedom our younger people have, and how we trade. Politicians clearly can't get this sorted. Once ready it needs taking out their hands, and everyone needs freedom to weigh up the options. Something which has not been done yet - the first vote kicked off the process - the second one determines how we as a nation go forward with all the information to hand.
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You're assuming that the electorate is sensible and will make the decision which is in the best interests of the Country. History suggests it won't. The only people now asking for another referendum are remainers. I don't see or speak to many disaffected leave voters who are doing so. If anything "Leave" has become more entrenched in their views.

A second referendum is a massive risk.
 
Gutter Boy said:
Oliver letwin, literally the inventor of the poll tax, strikes a blow helping the neoliberal globalist elite get their foot back on the necks of the people
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The neoliberals are the ones who want to not just leave the EU but also cut all ties with it. They are mostly part of the elite themselves and have convinced the "proles" that giving up business, job, scientific, medical, security and cultural opportunities is the best thing for them.
 
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