***OMT***Tottenham Hotspur FC v West Ham

[Pirate55]

Lobbing in aerial crosses against a defence like West Ham's will never, ever work.

Where did I advocate that?

 

[DHSF]

Lobbing in aerial crosses against a defence like West Ham's will never, ever work.

It would if you didnt have a midget up front.

The crux is - if youre going to be playing with out and out wingers like Townsend and Lennon - You dont negate their effectiveness by playing a midget and Ade isnt the best int here either. You got to play Soldado. Harry at times did the same too. Its not a sensible approach.

 

[scaramanga]

Where did I advocate that?

When you said you liked last night's approach. Last night's approach was to not think or plan or work out the opposition's weak points, it was just "running around a bit".

You can't really blame Sherwood for that, he only had a couple of days with the squad but the very last thing I want to see from our club is what we did last night.

 

[scaramanga]

It would if you didnt have a midget up front.

The crux is - if youre going to be playing with out and out wingers like Townsend and Lennon - You dont negate their effectiveness by playing a midget and Ade isnt the best int here either. You got to play Soldado. Harry at times did the same too. Its not a sensible approach.

It wouldn't work with a giant up front. Those defenders, coached by BFS will lap that **** up all day long.

Equally, playing out and out wingers is unlikely to do us any good as they're most effective when they (in John Barnes' immortal words) "get 'round the back". You can't "get 'round the back" if the opposition's defenders are on the edge of their own 6 yard box.

 

[Pirate55]

When you said you liked last night's approach. Last night's approach was to not think or plan or work out the opposition's weak points, it was just "running around a bit".

You can't really blame Sherwood for that, he only had a couple of days with the squad but the very last thing I want to see from our club is what we did last night.

Last nights approach was to start the game with a high tempo, play attacking football and try and score goals. That is what I want from the team I support. I feel sorry for you if you want something different.

 

[DHSF]

It wouldn't work with a giant up front. Those defenders, coached by BFS will lap that **** up all day long.

Equally, playing out and out wingers is unlikely to do us any good as they're most effective when they (in John Barnes' immortal words) "get 'round the back". You can't "get 'round the back" if the opposition's defenders are on the edge of their own 6 yard box.

I think Townsend got round the back a fair bit and so did Lennon.

I dont advocate how gung ho we were yesterday, it seemed like there was no tactical game plan. But tactical doesnt neccessarily have to be boring (alas AVB) but also being exciting and playing good football doesnt have to be as gung ho 'school playground' type stuff (alas Tim yesterday). I do recognise though that Tim had about five hours to work with them so he was hardly going to be complex about it.

 

[ledley's knee injections]

Agree on rest but not on ADE. He was looking fresh and not tired at all. He was running the channels, cutting in, holding up....just what we have been begging for. Wrong decision to bring him off. Gave the incentive to Spam as they had no fear of Defoe. Sherwood got that so so so wrong. Not the man for me.

On the train back from the lane now. The subs really changed the game for us. Ade was so good at holding the ball. What he was doing execptionally in the first half was providing an outlet to the midfield, he was running into centre mid holding off the defender taking the ball at feet and distributing it. We lost that when he went off. I really thibk defoe should have gone off. In that situation we needed a player who could hold onto tthethe ball and distribute. I would habe loved to see eriksen in that game. Someone who could have picked open a defence. Yes the players were kanckered but really felt ade should have continued.

Taking ade off was the game changer.
That sub says 'we are going to try and contain you in the middle 3rd instead of the final 3rd as we have done do far'
The problem with that is, if you get the better of us, you only have our defense to beat instead of mf and df

That's a risky strategy at any inny time.
With a fragile week and a patched up df, it's an idiots decisin

I said as soon as ade went offe

Just wanted to say, agree with all of these posts 100%.

While at 1-0 in the second half we weren't creating much..although control of the game was starting to shift towards West Ham, we at least had had semi-control of it. They were only dangerous off a couple of big punts which Maiga won against Vlad.

Ade was having an exellent game. Taking everything fired at him under contro. Winning flick-ons. Running with the bal and spreading play. Basically HOLDING THE DAMN THING UP.

Defoe, even on a 'good' day (can't really remember the last time he had a good day though), has never been about that, or good at that.

Taking Ade off was a ludicrous move. Basically consented domination of the game to Canning Town. They didn't do that much with it, just had more chance to punt it uptop/into the channels and pressurise our weak, makeshift back 4. We lost our outlet, any type of possession outside our own half. We invited pressure for fun. And we ultimately should have lost by more, which is mental given we really should have been at least 2-0 up at that stage.

I also don't agree with switching Azza and Townsend subs. Lennon was absolutely destroying his FB and looking reallly dangerous. Townsend played well in his usual selfish, wasteful way... he's frustrating... could be so much more effective if he sorted his decision-making out.

We should won this game, should NEVER have lost it, and for me most of the blame is attributed to the subs effected by the 'Dream Team'.

I hope Levy gets a permanent, good, manager in, ASAP.

 

[scaramanga]

Last nights approach was to start the game with a high tempo, play attacking football and try and score goals. That is what I want from the team I support. I feel sorry for you if you want something different.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that AVB was intentionally not scoring goals? Really?

And even Sherwood managed to see that the high tempo was a part of what undid us later. I know you're more intelligent/perceptive than Sherwood!

 

[scaramanga]

I think Townsend got round the back a fair bit and so did Lennon.

I dont advocate how gung ho we were yesterday, it seemed like there was no tactical game plan. But tactical doesnt neccessarily have to be boring (alas AVB) but also being exciting and playing good football doesnt have to be as gung ho 'school playground' type stuff (alas Tim yesterday). I do recognise though that Tim had about five hours to work with them so he was hardly going to be complex about it.

But to no effect as they were sat deep. They got around their men, but not the defence as a whole.

The only time we scored was because they committed all their players to a corner as that was (in BFS's plan) their best way of scoring against us.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that AVB was intentionally not scoring goals? Really?

And even Sherwood managed to see that the high tempo was a part of what undid us later. I know you're more intelligent/perceptive than Sherwood!

I think if we continue in this way people will come to realise that it was no coincidence that we won record points under AVB and it wasn't just down to Bale. The fact that we kept clean sheets and gave Bale the platform to do what he did was not a coincidence either. We won games. We saw out a result. We kept the ball well.

Coming flying out of the blocks may look nice and get the crowd going a bit, but it leads to a lot more 'we played well we just didn't get the break, I don't know what more I could have done really' type games that were the mark of Harry's second half seasons in 10/11 and 11/12.

Coming flying out of the blocks against a team that has their maximum level of fitness and concentration before they have been worn down will see them clear a lot of opportunities and crosses that we put in, and will tire us out towards the end of the games and leave us far more open to sucker punches. I am so, so furious at our failure to back a manager that I am confident would have turned us into winners.

 

[braineclipse]

I think if we continue in this way people will come to realise that it was no coincidence that we won record points under AVB and it wasn't just down to Bale. The fact that we kept clean sheets and gave Bale the platform to do what he did was not a coincidence either. We won games. We saw out a result. We kept the ball well.

Coming flying out of the blocks may look nice and get the crowd going a bit, but it leads to a lot more 'we played well we just didn't get the break, I don't know what more I could have done really' type games that were the mark of Harry's second half seasons in 10/11 and 11/12.

Coming flying out of the blocks against a team that has their maximum level of fitness and concentration before they have been worn down will see them clear a lot of opportunities and crosses that we put in, and will tire us out towards the end of the games and leave us far more open to sucker punches. I am so, so furious at our failure to back a manager that I am confident would have turned us into winners.

I think it's fine to come flying out of the blocks. You see that approach from some top teams at least from time to time. Look at Dortmund, look at City (at home at least), look at some of the United teams under Ferguson.

What you need though is the ability to rest with the ball and play through pressure at a later stage of the game. Changing the tempo to adjust to the changing game conditions, not be stuck on full tilt until you run out of energy.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think it's fine to come flying out of the blocks. You see that approach from some top teams at least from time to time. Look at Dortmund, look at City (at home at least), look at some of the United teams under Ferguson.

What you need though is the ability to rest with the ball and play through pressure at a later stage of the game. Changing the tempo to adjust to the changing game conditions, not be stuck on full tilt until you run out of energy.

It is fine, I think Southampton do it and it works for them. I just think that now we've sacked a manager and will now have to employ one that has different ideas and thus requires a different type of fitness from the players, that we are effectively writing off the season. It's a cluster****.

And I kind of think that playing in a controlled, intelligent manner is the sign of a top club. I'm sad that progress towards that end has been cut short, for seemingly no other reason than the idiotic expectations of our know-nothing owners who thought selling our best player would be a good precursor to the best season we've had for 50 years. macarons!

 

[braineclipse]

It is fine, I think Southampton do it and it works for them. I just think that now we've sacked a manager and will now have to employ one that has different ideas and thus requires a different type of fitness from the players, that we are effectively writing off the season. It's a cluster****.

And I kind of think that playing in a controlled, intelligent manner is the sign of a top club. I'm sad that progress towards that end has been cut short, for seemingly no other reason than the idiotic expectations of our know-nothing owners who thought selling our best player would be a good precursor to the best season we've had for 50 years. macarons!

We have a very strong squad although we're still looking for what the best team is out of that squad. We have a lot of players that are successful for various international teams playing various styles. We signed 7 new players this summer and another solid amount last summer, most of them will have plenty of experience playing various styles for their previous clubs. Most of them are highly trained professional footballers capable of playing various styles, including different ways to manage our intensity.

It's not like we're Stoke suddenly trying to pass the ball or Barcelona going route one football.

There are several good managers around that I think could be gettable, I will at least give that new manager a month or two to try to get his best team out there before I start panicking about this season. It's not like a new manager has to change everything, this was a choice from Sherwood for his first game in charge at home to a fairly poor West Ham side, it's not like this is a new course set in stone that will now be our future.

Most top teams (or teams I consider top teams at least) are capable of switching styles. They can come flying out of the blocks and get at an opponent straight away, they can sit back and defend when needed and they can press high up the pitch when needed.

 

[Lilywhite]

I think it tells you how much our season is up the ****heap when few of us are surpised or even that bothered that we've just been done over at home in the cup quarters by our rivals' reserve team having gone ahead (and lost to them for the second time in two months).

Not a fan of AVB's style of play at all but I'm not sure last night's performance could be described as entertaining either. It was just a traditional 4-4-2 with two speedy English wingers and a little and large duo up top. We had a couple of good opportunities early on but mostly we just whipped the ball in to the box and hoped for the best, not overly exciting in my eyes I'm afraid.

Not going to dig Tim for his subs though, can understand the Rose and Adebayor ones even if in an ideal world it could have been Defoe coming off instead.

Bleak times my friends.

 

[mudshark]

I think last night's was one of the most extraordinary games I've ever watched. We seemed in complete, total control until after we'd scored and Adebayor was subbed off, then the pinball started. It was like watching a school game at times, everyone chasing the ball, and once Wet Spam equalised, the headless chicken act really went into overdrive. I'm not sure Sherwood's rather facile analysis for the BBC really answered all the questions, but ho hum; all we can do is see where this ride takes us, I guess.

 

[braineclipse]

I think last night's was one of the most extraordinary games I've ever watched. We seemed in complete, total control until after we'd scored and Adebayor was subbed off, then the pinball started. It was like watching a school game at times, everyone chasing the ball, and once Wet Spam equalised, the headless chicken act really went into overdrive. I'm not sure Sherwood's rather facile analysis for the BBC really answered all the questions, but ho hum; all we can do is see where this ride takes us, I guess.

It started before Ade came off.

From the BBC live updates, West Ham chances between our goal and their equalizer:

- Attempt saved. Mohamed Diamé (West Ham United) right footed shot from the right side of the box is saved in the bottom left corner. Assisted by Modibo Maiga with a headed pass.
- Attempt saved. Matthew Taylor (West Ham United) left footed shot from outside the box is saved in the bottom right corner.
- Attempt saved. Matthew Taylor (West Ham United) right footed shot from the right side of the box is saved in the centre of the goal. Assisted by Modibo Maiga with a headed pass.

Don't know if you remember those chances, but a couple of them were pretty good chances and better chances than the majority of our shots in the game.

Edit: And it's not really extraordinary imo. West Ham sat back and were happy to play for a draw until we scored. Then they moved players forward and went direct and we weren't able to cope with it. Pretty standard Allardyce really, his teams generally are good at that kind of football.

 

[Pirate55]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that AVB was intentionally not scoring goals? Really?

And even Sherwood managed to see that the high tempo was a part of what undid us later. I know you're more intelligent/perceptive than Sherwood!

See BrainEclipses answer.

You are really naive if you think that to come out of the blocks fast is a prerequisite to failing later. It is all about managing intensities. AVB ALWAYS started us slowly and this was the cause of some dire and turgid home performances IMO ..it is particularly important to get an early goal against a team sitting back. That is why I feel corners and set pieces could have given us that all important edge and AVB was idiotic to neglect them.

An early goal so changes the dynamic of games against park the bus teams. AVB seemed content to let the first half go by without much attempt at fast tempo attacking. For example, how many times did we score in the first half at home under him?

Yesterday, unfortunately the goal didn't come that our early play deserved. The subs were required due to injury and lack of match fitness. And the defeat was caused by our three best headers of the ball in defence not being available.

 

[scaramanga]

See BrainEclipses answer.

You are really naive if you think that to come out of the blocks fast is a prerequisite to failing later. It is all about managing intensities. AVB ALWAYS started us slowly and this was the cause of some dire and turgid home performances IMO ..it is particularly important to get an early goal against a team sitting back. That is why I feel corners and set pieces could have given us that all important edge and AVB was idiotic to neglect them.

An early goal so changes the dynamic of games against park the bus teams. AVB seemed content to let the first half go by without much attempt at fast tempo attacking. For example, how many times did we score in the first half at home under him?

Yesterday, unfortunately the goal didn't come that our early play deserved. The subs were required due to injury and lack of match fitness. And the defeat was caused by our three best headers of the ball in defence not being available.

So when you use up all your energy flying out of the block and have little/nothing left, what then?

I'm really not comfortable throwing all our eggs into the "if we don't score in the first 20 mins we're ****ed" basket.

 

[braineclipse]

So when you use up all your energy flying out of the block and have little/nothing left, what then?

I'm really not comfortable throwing all our eggs into the "if we don't score in the first 20 mins we're ****ed" basket.

I think that's an oversimplification at best...

You can start like that and still have energy left for the end, but you need to be smart about it.

Most importantly, if the opponents either allow you do dominate possession or you're so good that you dominate possession you need to play in a way that makes them tire more than you do. Some of the stuff we played under AVB didn't do that. You need quick passing and movement, not players taking 5-6 touches every time and backwards/sideways passing in your own half.

This is not to say that we have to do what we did against West Ham, although what we did against them was alright for that game. We essentially did what Ferguson always backhandedly used to complement us on, we tried to make it an open game. To some extent we succeeded and most of the time we win that game I think. Against a poor team at home I think that makes a lot of sense, if we do the same against Southampton I would get worried.

 

[Pirate55]

So when you use up all your energy flying out of the block and have little/nothing left, what then?

I'm really not comfortable throwing all our eggs into the "if we don't score in the first 20 mins we're ****ed" basket.

So when teams like Manure, Mancity and Arssnl do it they are all " putting all their eggs in one basket" are they? We did it once under AVB (against Inter) and I thought that was our best home performance under him. Why WASNT that template followed more often?