Jordon Peterson

[Jurgen the German]

it certainly would, if only to gauge how much work and education still needs to be done on such issues of inclusion and diversity

I think Britain is a very diverse, liberal-minded country. There’s still work to be done and I agree education is needed, but I’m not sure policing speech is doing the heavy lifting. I sound like a broken record, but the main reason I don’t like political correctness is because I don’t think it works.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I expect you are right.

The world is getting stupider, and meaner.

You should read ‘Enlightenment Now’ by Steven Pinker. It’s quite an uplifting read. Essentially how life has improved compared to 50-100 years ago in terms of technology, income inequality, life expectancy, happiness, people work less hours and spend more time with family. He acknowledges that progress isn’t a straight line and there will often be blips, but the world is undeniably more liberal than it was 50 years.

 

[Lilbaz]

I expect you are right.

The world is getting stupider, and meaner.

Maybe. Seems to be:

If you are white and born in britain, you are partly to blame for the slave trade.

If you voted remain, you are either stupid, racist or old.

If you didn't like the new star wars films, you are a sexist, racist or misogynist.

If you didn't believe amber heard, you were a misogynist.

If you don't think trans should be able to fight women in mma, you are transphobic.

If you don't think that a trans, who has sexually assaulted women should be put in a womans prison. Who then goes onto sexually assault female prisoners, should have been put in there. You are transphobic.

The more accusations that happen. The more people that are being accused. The more people reject the accusations. The less power the accusations have.

 

[Lilbaz]

You should read ‘Enlightenment Now’ by Steven Pinker. It’s quite an uplifting read. Essentially how life has improved compared to 50-100 years ago in terms of technology, income inequality, life expectancy, happiness, people work less hours and spend more time with family. He acknowledges that progress isn’t a straight line and there will often be blips, but the world is undeniably more liberal than it was 50 years.

He did a ted talk. Don't agree with all of it. But is a good watch.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Maybe. Seems to be:

If you are white and born in britain, you are partly to blame for the slave trade.

If you voted remain, you are either stupid, racist or old.

If you didn't like the new star wars films, you are a sexist, racist or misogynist.

If you didn't believe amber heard, you were a misogynist.

If you don't think trans should be able to fight women in mma, you are transphobic.

If you don't think that a trans, who has sexually assaulted women should be put in a womans prison. Who then goes onto sexually assault female prisoners, should have been put in there. You are transphobic.

The more accusations that happen. The more people that are being accused. The more people reject the accusations. The less power the accusations have.

You forgot if you didn’t like the Ghostbusters female reboot then you’re a sexist pig.

 

[Lilbaz]

You forgot if you didn’t like the Ghostbusters female reboot then you’re a sexist pig.

I was saving that for you. xxx

 

[braineclipse]

I might be wrong, but i suspect they are going in the opposite direction.

In the short term you may very well be right. Over a somewhat longer term I definitely think it's moving in what I consider to be the right direction.

Maybe. Seems to be:

If you are white and born in britain, you are partly to blame for the slave trade.

If you voted remain, you are either stupid, racist or old.

If you didn't like the new star wars films, you are a sexist, racist or misogynist.

If you didn't believe amber heard, you were a misogynist.

If you don't think trans should be able to fight women in mma, you are transphobic.

If you don't think that a trans, who has sexually assaulted women should be put in a womans prison. Who then goes onto sexually assault female prisoners, should have been put in there. You are transphobic.

The more accusations that happen. The more people that are being accused. The more people reject the accusations. The less power the accusations have.

I've heard several of these arguments. Mostly as reactions from people like Peterson and Rogan who criticise the "woke", "left", etc. Who then have a rather easy time making counterarguments. For sure some on the left will say things like the above, I disagree with it. But I don't think those are frequent arguments from people on the left with power and/or influence.

White privelege is a thing. White people on the West have benefitted from colonialism, the slave trade etc. White people continue to get the lasting benefits of that to a greater extent than non white people.

Some of the vote vote remain was motivated by racism.

Some of the backlash against the new star wars films has been a result of sexism and racism.

I don't care about Heard or Depp anywhere near enough to have an opinion.

It's not transphobic to not want teams women to fight in the MMA. Saying "it's a fudging man" about a trans woman is.

Trans people and prisons is not well enough handled at all and new solutions must be found.

Do you think accusations from people like Peterson about people on the left have a similar effect?

 

[braineclipse]

I think Britain is a very diverse, liberal-minded country. There’s still work to be done and I agree education is needed, but I’m not sure policing speech is doing the heavy lifting. I sound like a broken record, but the main reason I don’t like political correctness is because I don’t think it works.

I'm not British so I'll talk based on my own experience, I'm guessing there will have been a similar experience in Britain.

I didn't in any way grow up in an area or with people particularly bigoted for the time.

I've heard quite a lot of slurs earlier in my life, not directed at me, but about other people and used as general derogatory terms. Concerning race, ethnicity, women, religion, gay people etc. I won't repeat the translated versions here, but if your experience is anything like my own examples will come to mind for you as well.

There seems to be less of it now. Perhaps I'm just less exposed to it, but my impression definitely is that there's less of it. It seems to be deemed politically incorrect to use those words.

I think that's a good thing. That's not the only thing driving more inclusive attitudes of course, but I think it's part of it. I think it helps.

Political correctness can go "too far", be used in the wrong way. This remains an issue on both sides of the political spectrum and should be met with specific objection in those specific instances. Not with a general objection to political correctness imo.

 

[braineclipse]

You forgot if you didn’t like the Ghostbusters female reboot then you’re a sexist pig.

And this was or is being said by who exactly? Who are the people worth taking seriously, for me people with at least some influence or power, who say these things?

 

[Jurgen the German]

I'm not British so I'll talk based on my own experience, I'm guessing there will have been a similar experience in Britain.

I didn't in any way grow up in an area or with people particularly bigoted for the time.

I've heard quite a lot of slurs earlier in my life, not directed at me, but about other people and used as general derogatory terms. Concerning race, ethnicity, women, religion, gay people etc. I won't repeat the translated versions here, but if your experience is anything like my own examples will come to mind for you as well.

There seems to be less of it now. Perhaps I'm just less exposed to it, but my impression definitely is that there's less of it. It seems to be deemed politically incorrect to use those words.

I think that's a good thing. That's not the only thing driving more inclusive attitudes of course, but I think it's part of it. I think it helps.

Political correctness can go "too far", be used in the wrong way. This remains an issue on both sides of the political spectrum and should be met with specific objection in those specific instances. Not with a general objection to political correctness imo.

I agree you do hear less slurs directed at minorities, women, gay people and disabled people. Where I disagree is I wouldn’t attribute those things to political correctness. Attitudes change over generations. 40 years ago, people used to be openly hostile to gay people, it still happens but far less frequently because over time, people have realised that gay people deserve the right to be as miserable as heterosexual people. That has nothing to do with political correctness.

 

[glasgowspur]

I agree you do hear less slurs directed at minorities, women, gay people and disabled people. Where I disagree is I wouldn’t attribute those things to political correctness. Attitudes change over generations. 40 years ago, people used to be openly hostile to gay people, it still happens but far less frequently because over time, people have realised that gay people deserve the right to be as miserable as heterosexual people. That has nothing to do with political correctness.

And as our horizons broaden and we actually get to met the people we are taught to hate you realise that they are just the same as us, we have no reason to hate or fear them.
That is the education that is needed, actual real world interaction, not a forced coming together to further a political agenda.

 

[Jurgen the German]

And this was or is being said by who exactly? Who are the people worth taking seriously, for me people with at least some influence or power, who say these things?

Plenty of articles at the time from some mainstream media outlets said it was a factor. The director, Paul Feig attributed its lack of success to sexism from men. It was a brick film, but it wasn’t brick because women were in it, it was just brick because it was brick. That same director and some of the cast made Bridesmaids which is a good film, Ghostbusters was just a misfire.

Unfortunately they are a loud minority who companies do pander to. Thankfully it does seem like some companies are pushing back against this ideology, Netflix recently told their employees that they may have to work on content that they don’t like and find offensive. And if they can’t put their ideology aside then maybe Netflix isn’t the place for them. Halifax have got into hot water for advising people to close their accounts if they dislike their staff displaying they pronouns. That idea may be well-intentioned, but not sure it’s particularly good business.

 

[Baleforce]

You should read ‘Enlightenment Now’ by Steven Pinker. It’s quite an uplifting read. Essentially how life has improved compared to 50-100 years ago in terms of technology, income inequality, life expectancy, happiness, people work less hours and spend more time with family. He acknowledges that progress isn’t a straight line and there will often be blips, but the world is undeniably more liberal than it was 50 years.

I agree long term, but I think we’ve definitely stepped back from where we were 10 years ago.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I agree long term, but I think we’ve definitely stepped back from where we were 10 years ago.

I would agree in some areas, things have gone backwards. A lot of right wing populists have got into power or have come very close to winning elections. On the bright side, Trump got voted out of office after one term. I do however think that’s partly down to a failure from the left rather than anything great the right has achieved. Let’s look at an issue like immigration, most people welcome immigrants if they can contribute to our society but the left have to at least convey to people that they understand it can become an issue if you let too many people in. The right play on peoples fears, they’re going to take your jobs etc but unfortunately it’s a tactic that works on some people.

 

[braineclipse]

I agree you do hear less slurs directed at minorities, women, gay people and disabled people. Where I disagree is I wouldn’t attribute those things to political correctness. Attitudes change over generations. 40 years ago, people used to be openly hostile to gay people, it still happens but far less frequently because over time, people have realised that gay people deserve the right to be as miserable as heterosexual people. That has nothing to do with political correctness.

I think those terms now being seen as politically incorrect contributes to people using them less. I think that's better for people that those slurs are aimed at.

I also think it contributes to changing attitudes. If you grow up in an environment where using slurs about minorities is accepted I think it's more likely that you end up holding negative views of those minorities.

I think the resistance against that, a call for political correctness, can help people change their attitudes.

 

[Lilbaz]

In the short term you may very well be right. Over a somewhat longer term I definitely think it's moving in what I consider to be the right direction.



I've heard several of these arguments. Mostly as reactions from people like Peterson and Rogan who criticise the "woke", "left", etc. Who then have a rather easy time making counterarguments. For sure some on the left will say things like the above, I disagree with it. But I don't think those are frequent arguments from people on the left with power and/or influence.

White privelege is a thing. White people on the West have benefitted from colonialism, the slave trade etc. White people continue to get the lasting benefits of that to a greater extent than non white people.

Some of the vote vote remain was motivated by racism.

Some of the backlash against the new star wars films has been a result of sexism and racism.

I don't care about Heard or Depp anywhere near enough to have an opinion.

It's not transphobic to not want teams women to fight in the MMA. Saying "it's a fudging man" about a trans woman is.

Trans people and prisons is not well enough handled at all and new solutions must be found.

Do you think accusations from people like Peterson about people on the left have a similar effect?

White people on the west? The irish? The slavs? The roma? Those notorious colonialists?

 

[braineclipse]

Plenty of articles at the time from some mainstream media outlets said it was a factor. The director, Paul Feig attributed its lack of success to sexism from men. It was a brick film, but it wasn’t brick because women were in it, it was just brick because it was brick. That same director and some of the cast made Bridesmaids which is a good film, Ghostbusters was just a misfire.

Unfortunately they are a loud minority who companies do pander to. Thankfully it does seem like some companies are pushing back against this ideology, Netflix recently told their employees that they may have to work on content that they don’t like and find offensive. And if they can’t put their ideology aside then maybe Netflix isn’t the place for them. Halifax have got into hot water for advising people to close their accounts if they dislike their staff displaying they pronouns. That idea may be well-intentioned, but not sure it’s particularly good business.

I agree that it was a factor in the negative reaction to the film. That's very different to saying that if you disliked the film you're a sexist pig.

I have no issues with people thinking it was a brick film. That doesn't make one a sexist.

 

[braineclipse]

I would agree in some areas, things have gone backwards. A lot of right wing populists have got into power or have come very close to winning elections. On the bright side, Trump got voted out of office after one term. I do however think that’s partly down to a failure from the left rather than anything great the right has achieved. Let’s look at an issue like immigration, most people welcome immigrants if they can contribute to our society but the left have to at least convey to people that they understand it can become an issue if you let too many people in. The right play on peoples fears, they’re going to take your jobs etc but unfortunately it’s a tactic that works on some people.

I agree that the left can and should do a better job. I agree with most of your post.

I think the fear tactics from the right would exist regardless, and to an extent work regardless. I think that is the bigger issue.

 

[braineclipse]

White people on the west? The irish? The slavs? The roma? Those notorious colonialists?

I have edited my post to remove "all" before "white people".

(Actually I haven't done that because I didn't say that.)

When I said "white people" I was talking about this on a group level. I thought that was obvious.

 

[Lilbaz]

I have edited my post to remove "all" before "white people".

(Actually I haven't done that because I didn't say that.)

When I said "white people" I was talking about this on a group level. I thought that was obvious.

Grouping people by skin colour? Seems that's only allowed when the skin colour is white. If not racist it's hypocritical.