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Coronavirus

Lilbaz said:
Think it's 50,000 a year. But you could also count drug overdoses aswell.
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Very sad. Just looked and you are correct, 1.7% of all deaths in America.

I'd imagine the % is much higher among the poor / marginalised, rather than being an "equal chance" for everyone, but not a sign of a healthy society.
 
monkeybarry said:
Which unfortunately still isn't protection.
Having had a highly vulnerable parent that left the flat once (once!) in 2020, who was still hospitalised in Jan 2021 and came very close to dying, two and a half months of my, and everyone else's life being a tiny bit restricted is worth it.

Once we've reached full vaccination offering we hit "new normal". People may still die after that, but that will be the world with covid we now live in.
Anyone that suffers before fully offered vaccination has been partly let down by their fellow members of society.
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Whilst I fully understand your reasoning for valuing safety over 2 1/2 months of tour own life, you don't get to make that value judgement on everyone else's. Neither should the govt.
 
Lilbaz said:
They are at more risk from dying in a road accident or from the flu. Should we ban them from getting in cars or lockdown every winter? Destroy the economy. See spurs go bankrupt.

They have the choice of whether they want to go to a night club or a football match. They can get the vaccine and reduce the risk even further. Or not the choice is theirs.
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Road usage and Flu are operating at their protected level of risk - the probably is an inaccurate comparator.

It's not about the choice of event attendance, it's about the spread.
Flu affects less people as it is less transmissible.
Driving affects a more concentrated group also.

So by your own examples we should wait until full vaccination offering and delivery has been done before opening up.
 
scaramanga said:
Whilst I fully understand your reasoning for valuing safety over 2 1/2 months of tour own life, you don't get to make that value judgement on everyone else's. Neither should the govt.
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The issue with that position is, if you change the word order slightly, opening up before double vaccination is making the same judgement on others by increasing their risk for your "freedom".
 
monkeybarry said:
The issue with that position is, if you change the word order slightly, opening up before double vaccination is making the same judgement on others by increasing their risk for your "freedom".
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Yes, that's the point.

People should have been allowed to make their own risk judgements from the start.
 
monkeybarry said:
Yes, that's the point - that's why we have governance and a healthcare sector to manage society.
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Those are needed but there has to be limits on what those in govt can do.

Restrictions on our lives such as those in force for the last year or so go far beyond the limit of what a govt should be able to do, imo.
 
monkeybarry said:
Road usage and Flu are operating at their protected level of risk - the probably is an inaccurate comparator.

It's not about the choice of event attendance, it's about the spread.
Flu affects less people as it is less transmissible.
Driving affects a more concentrated group also.

So by your own examples we should wait until full vaccination offering and delivery has been done before opening up.
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In flu season between 300 and 400 can die every day. We are not going to see those levels again with covid.

Flu vaccines are offered sept/oct. Flu season starts around november and peaks in jan. They are offered to the vulnerable.

With covid the vulnerable have already been offered.
 
scaramanga said:
People should have been allowed to make their own risk judgements from the start.
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I’m wondering how someone living with cancer, for example, can make their own risk judgement if they have to travel by tube to their workplace.

They can wear a mask; but what happens if lots of others in the same carriage have made a risk judgement that they don’t want to?
 
Mikey10 said:
I see the US are advising their citizens not to travel to the UK.
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The us is in a bad place. Loads of vaccines but lots of the population refusing them. Some for political reasons but many ethnic minorities aswell. Delta taking hold there now. Hopefully it wont be too bad. They did well with the uk variant.
 
Mikey10 said:
I’m wondering how someone living with cancer, for example, can make their own risk judgement if they have to travel by tube to their workplace.

They can wear a mask; but what happens if lots of others in the same carriage have made a risk judgement that they don’t want to?
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They can choose not to travel to work.
 
scaramanga said:
They can choose not to travel to work.
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Or buy food in a supermarket? Go to the doctors?

The great barrington declaration sounded good but would not work in practice.

We are not in the same position we were though. There may be vulnerable that cannot get a vaccine and we should do all we can to help them. But other than that we move on.

Did see boris threatening vaccine passports for nightclubs today. Guess he saw what macron did and the amount of people that refused the jab suddenly change their minds. Hopefully it will be a kick up the arse for some.
 
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