OMT - Spurs v West Ham

[braineclipse]

Utterly frustrating to give away the points like that. Lessons must be learned, and quickly.

There's so much potential in this team.

 

[parklane1]

Its faaaaar too early to write anyone off or give over titles. I always see these statements on social media like Champions dont lose three goal leads but then equally reigning Champs dont get done over 7-2 or whatever it was. Footballs made up of a season of games not results and a few half baked cliches

I don't know how to use the like button, we will be in there at the end i am sure.

 

[Diamond Lights]

What’s the GG podcast? It’s not one I’ve heard of?

Sorry! meant Fighting rooster!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I'll start by saying that the outcome of this game is right up there with the most embarrassing and humiliating (adding in the context of it being West Ham) of recent times - up there with Colchester, Bayern Munich and going back a little further Emirates Marketing Project in 2004.

However, some of the reaction is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As with anything really good or bad we have to try hard to separate a one-off from the wider context. As we needed to remain grounded after beating Man U 6-1 a fortnight ago we now must remain measured in review of yesterday and try to identify the patterns where they exist.

I got so many messages from spurs mates yesterday saying that was 'so typical Spurs' - well lets debunk that one....I can guarantee that every set of supporters has a core that believes only their team are capable of such contempt and misgivings. That was the first occasion since we drew with stoke in 2015 that we have led by 2 goals in a home league game and not gone on to win. The occasion before that came in 2004 v Leicester. we have led giants like Real Madrid (2017), Chelsea's title winning teams (2015, 2017), Woolwich when they were good and Emirates Marketing Project on many occasions and gone on to win all those games so there's really no pattern of throwing away 2+ goal leads leading to the conclusion that yesterday was very much the exception and not the rule.

NOTE - - I accept that we were pegged back in Jose's first two games last season against West Ham and Bournemouth in successive weeks from 3-0 to 3-2 (and I suspect had the games gone on any longer they might have been 3-3 too!) but ultimately we rode those out and it feels like a lot has happened since.

It is simply unforgiveable to give away a 3 goal lead, especially against inferior opponents, at home with less than 10 minutes remaining. The pattern that does hit me in the face and generate concern is how we defend set pieces. Of the 5 home goals we have conceded this season 4 have come from left wing set plays (albeit I still label the Saudi Sportswashing Machine penalty as a laws of the game farce). Last year, even in the Poch doldrum we didn't concede any goals from set pieces ironically until Jose's first game at West Ham. Perhaps therefore there is a problem to be solved in not allowing those free kicks to be conceded in the first instance and then the actual defending of them but this too is quite simplistic. We actually defend the first ball fine yesterday - it is then a combination of poor choice by Winks, a probable foul on him by Ogbonna and then a 1 in a 100 worldy strike. Also, I have only discussed the free kicks we have conceded from and havent got the number of times we defend them fine and not concede.

We were obviously electric at the start of the game yesterday and utterly ruthless in front of goal. Whilst we didn't maintain that it is absolutely expectant that we did then cede possession of the ball and with West Ham making a game of it in the second half (compare their approach to United who gave up at half-time, or even Burnley last season whom we went on to win 5-0 and they shut up shop in the second) there were always going to uncomfortable moments. That said even at 3-1 I had no fears that we wouldn't go on to win. The timing and nature of their second goal clearly spooked us though even then on another day Bale makes it 4-2 and the narrative is entrely diferent.

I get what Jose said post game which Declan Rice alluded to...sometimes it just feels as if things are meant to be and 'football happens' - we've been on the right side of this more often than not - think back to Ajax, Emirates Marketing Project (CL) and even several of our late joys against West Ham.

We need to look back on this game in a few weeks/months time to review it for its context; it may become the cause of future (mental) breakdowns and this is something Jose has to fix but I really don't see it as a consequence of current failings. I think we'll look back at it as a blip.

For context this date last year we ground out a somewhat fortuitous 1-1 home draw with Watford in what was the dying embers of Poch's reign though the game happened in reverse with us scoring the late equaliser and papering over the cracks; I certainly feel far more positive where we are now 12 months on.

Great post

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Sorry! meant Fighting rooster!

Ah yeah
I really enjoyed Fridays one with Harry Brooks

 

[parklane1]

No one told Sissoko not to jump, Sanchez not to be so damn stupid, Winks not to give the ball to the opposition on the edge of our area ( and then not put his body on the line) Aurier not to give away fanthom free kicks or Bale not to drag his shot wide. Nor did anyone tell them to misplace passes, not win second balls and generally be second best. The players need to look at themselves

This

He’s got a shelf full of titles. The bottlers we saw on the pitch second half yesterday don’t.


I know where I think the problems lie.

And this.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Agree
It’s an issue
It’s been an issue for some time
Jan was great in the air

Super-BatJan!

https://twitter.com/x/status/1317925660963315712

 

[SteveAWOL]

I didn't hear he had a knock. It still doesn't explain the rest of the season where Moura started and offered very little in those games.

A “little problem” apparently... although Lamela did join in the post-match warm-down at least...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1317846263115747328

 

[SteveAWOL]

I don't know how to use the like button, we will be in there at the end i am sure.

Hopefully Mourinho will use the pain of these dropped points to fire the players up like Fergie used to... remember when they got thrashed 5-0 by Saudi Sportswashing Machine then lost next game 6-3 to Southampton but still won the title.

Any serial offenders don’t buck up their ideas should be offloaded in January.

 

[braineclipse]

I'll start by saying that the outcome of this game is right up there with the most embarrassing and humiliating (adding in the context of it being West Ham) of recent times - up there with Colchester, Bayern Munich and going back a little further Emirates Marketing Project in 2004.

However, some of the reaction is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As with anything really good or bad we have to try hard to separate a one-off from the wider context. As we needed to remain grounded after beating Man U 6-1 a fortnight ago we now must remain measured in review of yesterday and try to identify the patterns where they exist.

I got so many messages from spurs mates yesterday saying that was 'so typical Spurs' - well lets debunk that one....I can guarantee that every set of supporters has a core that believes only their team are capable of such contempt and misgivings. That was the first occasion since we drew with stoke in 2015 that we have led by 2 goals in a home league game and not gone on to win. The occasion before that came in 2004 v Leicester. we have led giants like Real Madrid (2017), Chelsea's title winning teams (2015, 2017), Woolwich when they were good and Emirates Marketing Project on many occasions and gone on to win all those games so there's really no pattern of throwing away 2+ goal leads leading to the conclusion that yesterday was very much the exception and not the rule.

NOTE - - I accept that we were pegged back in Jose's first two games last season against West Ham and Bournemouth in successive weeks from 3-0 to 3-2 (and I suspect had the games gone on any longer they might have been 3-3 too!) but ultimately we rode those out and it feels like a lot has happened since.

It is simply unforgiveable to give away a 3 goal lead, especially against inferior opponents, at home with less than 10 minutes remaining. The pattern that does hit me in the face and generate concern is how we defend set pieces. Of the 5 home goals we have conceded this season 4 have come from left wing set plays (albeit I still label the Saudi Sportswashing Machine penalty as a laws of the game farce). Last year, even in the Poch doldrum we didn't concede any goals from set pieces ironically until Jose's first game at West Ham. Perhaps therefore there is a problem to be solved in not allowing those free kicks to be conceded in the first instance and then the actual defending of them but this too is quite simplistic. We actually defend the first ball fine yesterday - it is then a combination of poor choice by Winks, a probable foul on him by Ogbonna and then a 1 in a 100 worldy strike. Also, I have only discussed the free kicks we have conceded from and havent got the number of times we defend them fine and not concede.

We were obviously electric at the start of the game yesterday and utterly ruthless in front of goal. Whilst we didn't maintain that it is absolutely expectant that we did then cede possession of the ball and with West Ham making a game of it in the second half (compare their approach to United who gave up at half-time, or even Burnley last season whom we went on to win 5-0 and they shut up shop in the second) there were always going to uncomfortable moments. That said even at 3-1 I had no fears that we wouldn't go on to win. The timing and nature of their second goal clearly spooked us though even then on another day Bale makes it 4-2 and the narrative is entrely diferent.

I get what Jose said post game which Declan Rice alluded to...sometimes it just feels as if things are meant to be and 'football happens' - we've been on the right side of this more often than not - think back to Ajax, Emirates Marketing Project (CL) and even several of our late joys against West Ham.

We need to look back on this game in a few weeks/months time to review it for its context; it may become the cause of future (mental) breakdowns and this is something Jose has to fix but I really don't see it as a consequence of current failings. I think we'll look back at it as a blip.

For context this date last year we ground out a somewhat fortuitous 1-1 home draw with Watford in what was the dying embers of Poch's reign though the game happened in reverse with us scoring the late equaliser and papering over the cracks; I certainly feel far more positive where we are now 12 months on.

Lovely post and I very much agree.

I'm fine with us sitting back for periods. That's what Mourinho wants. Being 3-0 up, sitting back and counter attacking is obviously a very good position to be in.

I thought we could have done better after the 3-0 goal in terms of creating chances, particularly exploiting those counter attacking opportunities. Kane hit the post, but it was far from a clear cut chance. Then Bale late on, other than that I can't remember us causing West Ham many problems.

Of course having given away the win everything gets scrutinised. To some extent it's understandable that our performance dropped being 3-0 up. But this is another reminder of why that shouldn't happen, not to this extent.

 

[parklane1]

Only one CB getting the blame, the other seems to be invisible.
Dont know why, and we've been doing it for age, but we concede possession from our 18 yard line to the edge of the centre circle very easily.
We pressed really well in their half yesterday in the first, and didn't in our half.

Amazing is it not, Sanchez is getting a lot of unfair stick while Toby seems to get away with it. Toby was brilliant for several season but he is finished at the top level imo. His legs have gone and his positional sense leaves a lot to be desired.

Dier is better then both of them imo and we missed him yesterday.

 

[parklane1]

I'll start by saying that the outcome of this game is right up there with the most embarrassing and humiliating (adding in the context of it being West Ham) of recent times - up there with Colchester, Bayern Munich and going back a little further Emirates Marketing Project in 2004.

However, some of the reaction is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater. As with anything really good or bad we have to try hard to separate a one-off from the wider context. As we needed to remain grounded after beating Man U 6-1 a fortnight ago we now must remain measured in review of yesterday and try to identify the patterns where they exist.

I got so many messages from spurs mates yesterday saying that was 'so typical Spurs' - well lets debunk that one....I can guarantee that every set of supporters has a core that believes only their team are capable of such contempt and misgivings. That was the first occasion since we drew with stoke in 2015 that we have led by 2 goals in a home league game and not gone on to win. The occasion before that came in 2004 v Leicester. we have led giants like Real Madrid (2017), Chelsea's title winning teams (2015, 2017), Woolwich when they were good and Emirates Marketing Project on many occasions and gone on to win all those games so there's really no pattern of throwing away 2+ goal leads leading to the conclusion that yesterday was very much the exception and not the rule.

NOTE - - I accept that we were pegged back in Jose's first two games last season against West Ham and Bournemouth in successive weeks from 3-0 to 3-2 (and I suspect had the games gone on any longer they might have been 3-3 too!) but ultimately we rode those out and it feels like a lot has happened since.

It is simply unforgiveable to give away a 3 goal lead, especially against inferior opponents, at home with less than 10 minutes remaining. The pattern that does hit me in the face and generate concern is how we defend set pieces. Of the 5 home goals we have conceded this season 4 have come from left wing set plays (albeit I still label the Saudi Sportswashing Machine penalty as a laws of the game farce). Last year, even in the Poch doldrum we didn't concede any goals from set pieces ironically until Jose's first game at West Ham. Perhaps therefore there is a problem to be solved in not allowing those free kicks to be conceded in the first instance and then the actual defending of them but this too is quite simplistic. We actually defend the first ball fine yesterday - it is then a combination of poor choice by Winks, a probable foul on him by Ogbonna and then a 1 in a 100 worldy strike. Also, I have only discussed the free kicks we have conceded from and havent got the number of times we defend them fine and not concede.

We were obviously electric at the start of the game yesterday and utterly ruthless in front of goal. Whilst we didn't maintain that it is absolutely expectant that we did then cede possession of the ball and with West Ham making a game of it in the second half (compare their approach to United who gave up at half-time, or even Burnley last season whom we went on to win 5-0 and they shut up shop in the second) there were always going to uncomfortable moments. That said even at 3-1 I had no fears that we wouldn't go on to win. The timing and nature of their second goal clearly spooked us though even then on another day Bale makes it 4-2 and the narrative is entrely diferent.

I get what Jose said post game which Declan Rice alluded to...sometimes it just feels as if things are meant to be and 'football happens' - we've been on the right side of this more often than not - think back to Ajax, Emirates Marketing Project (CL) and even several of our late joys against West Ham.

We need to look back on this game in a few weeks/months time to review it for its context; it may become the cause of future (mental) breakdowns and this is something Jose has to fix but I really don't see it as a consequence of current failings. I think we'll look back at it as a blip.

For context this date last year we ground out a somewhat fortuitous 1-1 home draw with Watford in what was the dying embers of Poch's reign though the game happened in reverse with us scoring the late equaliser and papering over the cracks; I certainly feel far more positive where we are now 12 months on.

Great post and i could not agree more, we are a work in progress ( so many new players to blend in and one or two to fade out) it will not happen overnight but it will happen as the season goes on.

 

[braineclipse]

Amazing is it not, Sanchez is getting a lot of unfair stick while Toby seems to get away with it. Toby was brilliant for several season but he is finished at the top level imo. His legs have gone and his positional sense leaves a lot to be desired.

Dier is better then both of them imo and we missed him yesterday.

I suppose it's easier to accept the decline from Alderweireld given his age and his previous level.

Sanches was supposed to be the future. Other than a good first season, partnered by a top class centre back and in a highly functional team, he's continued to disappoint. Perhaps expectations were too high.

Alderweireld might be finished at the top level, I'm still waiting for Sanches to reach the top level. Been waiting for a while too.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Wouldn’t United away be a crunch game?

And I agree. We shut the bed when we get that chance to go top

It is a crunch game. Not sure how it stacks up against games to go top/put pressure on the leaders or cup finals though. We freeze whenever anyone talks us up as contenders. Seems to be ingrained in the club. It’s been an issue for multiple managers now and the players have changed also. We can win the occasional big game but anything really do or die we just don’t have the stomach for. I still think this is our best chance in years to win something though. No team is particularly standing out and we have the best striker in the league and possibly the best in world football alongside lewandowski who is also on fire.

 

[SteveAWOL]

I suppose it's easier to accept the decline from Alderweireld given his age and his previous level.

Sanches was supposed to be the future. Other than a good first season, partnered by a top class centre back and in a highly functional team, he's continued to disappoint. Perhaps expectations were too high.

Alderweireld might be finished at the top level, I'm still waiting for Sanches to reach the top level. Been waiting for a while too.

Hopefully Tanganga will (along with Rodon) be our defensive rock in future but poor lad seems to have been crocked for most of this year.

Levy might have his work cut out recouping the £42m we paid for Sanchez but if PSG are daft enough to pay £50m for Sideshow Bob then there’s hope we can persuade them that he’s the new Thiago Silva!

 

[Jurgen the German]

I suppose it's easier to accept the decline from Alderweireld given his age and his previous level.
e?

Exactly. Alderweireld’s problems stem from his age. Sanchez is just not good enough. Too many flaws particularly with his distribution and susceptibility to high balls, and he’s not strong enough despite having a good physique. Makes too many mistakes too. Other than pace I genuinely don’t know what other strengths he has? And you know it’s a problem when people say “he just needs to play alongside someone better/more experienced”. Would anyone have ever said that about Toby or Jan at any point during their time here?

 

[DubSpur]

Moura is marmite, but was some good points over on the GG podcast about Moura. He is limited sure, but offers aggressive running all game. Again, think he was a great sub to bring on to offer an outlet on the break and to assist down the left where they continually attacked all game.

There's plenty that can offer aggressive running and it doesn't make up for what he lacks in other areas of his game.
Bringing on Davies instead would've done a better job at shoring up the left. He's also better at defending crosses which is where the most threat came from.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Harry Brooks summarised their limitations rather well in the summer...

 

[glasgowspur]

I thought Toby was great myself

I thought he was OK, don't think any cb that plays in a defence that concedes three can have had a great game.
But anyway, the original post that I was replying to said both cbs were getting pelters, they clearly aren't.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I thought he was OK, don't think any cb that plays in a defence that concedes three can have had a great game.
But anyway, the original post that I was replying to said both cbs were getting pelters, they clearly aren't.

In a nutshell, Toby has more credit in the bank than Sanchez. In isolation the OG wasn’t that bad. It’s the repeated mistakes he keeps making game after game, season after season that people are more annoyed about to the point where they have lost patience completely with him. He gives the ball away constantly, isn’t physical enough despite having the tools and seems to make mistakes more often than not.