Harry Winks

[Bedfordspurs]

But encouraging youth development to what end, if it's not about the national team? That's what I'm trying to understand.

It should simply be to the benefit of players from the country of that league. Some may go in to be internationals and most won’t buy at least they would have had a fair craic and opportunity And then may have a career elsewhere

 

[elltrev]

Don’t worry it’s cool
The logic as i understood it was too stop clubs poaching the best players form around the globe and therefore ignore their own countries need (at a domestic level)
But rich clubs can afford to get around it and exploit it still which is my issue with it
There’s a reason clubs like Chelsea sign kid’s and then loan them out and it’s detrimental in some cases to the players and to players at the club their loaned too who don’t get games for example

Yeah I wonder if the current policy just reflects a slightly messy middle ground between the FA's desire to benefit the national team, and the Premier League's desire to benefit the Premier League (and its teams).

 

[camspur]

I think the rule was introduced to try and avoid the "we buy every player available" concept of certain clubs and try to force them to have a few players brought through the ranks of their own club. To me it's a modernized version of the old "can't have more than x foreignors in your squad" which we had back in the 80s. Instead of banning foreign players you enforce a homegrown rule.

 

[elltrev]

It should simply be to the benefit of players from the country of that league. Some may go in to be internationals and most won’t buy at least they would have had a fair craic and opportunity And then may have a career elsewhere

I agree that's what the purpose should be, but in the policy's current guise it isn't - just trying to understand why. Though see my post immediately above for my take on why it might be.

 

[elltrev]

I think the rule was introduced to try and avoid the "we buy every player available" concept of certain clubs and try to force them to have a few players bought through the ranks of their own club. To me it's a modernized version of the old "can't have more than x foreignors in your squad" which we had back in the 80s. Instead of banning foreign players you enforce a homegrown rule.

But the PL rule doesn't say anything about your own club - just any English (or Welsh) clubs.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The Homegrown Player Rule is an initiative of the English Premier League to allow for more domestic players to be developed from an earlier age in the hope of nurturing more homegrown talent. It forms part of the League's Elite Player Performance Plan. The Premier League proposed a maximum of 17 non-"homegrown" players in each club squad, and the squad size is a maximum of 25. This means that in a full squad of 25 players, there must be at least eight homegrown players.[1][2]Greg Dyke, the former chairman of the Football Association (FA), wanted to implement much stronger regulation of foreign players. His intention is to help England to win the 2022 World Cup in Qatar, as he stated in an op-ed piece.[3]

Some of the most significant of Dyke’s 2015 proposals included:

• Homegrown players in a top-flight 25-man squad be increased from eight to 12 [1] two of whom must be brought up in the team's youth system
• Tightening the definition of what it is to be a homegrown player as a consequence fewer foreign-born players would qualify

 

[elltrev]

The Homegrown Player Rule is an initiative of the English Premier League to allow for more domestic players to be developed from an earlier age in the hope of nurturing more homegrown talent. It forms part of the League's Elite Player Performance Plan. The Premier League proposed a maximum of 17 non-"homegrown" players in each club squad, and the squad size is a maximum of 25. This means that in a full squad of 25 players, there must be at least eight homegrown players.[1][2]Greg Dyke, the former chairman of the Football Association (FA), wanted to implement much stronger regulation of foreign players. His intention is to help England to win the 2022 World Cup in Qatar, as he stated in an op-ed piece.[3]

Some of the most significant of Dyke’s 2015 proposals included:

• Homegrown players in a top-flight 25-man squad be increased from eight to 12 [1] two of whom must be bought up in the team's youth system
• Tightening the definition of what it is to be a homegrown player as a consequence fewer foreign-born players would qualify

Yeah, it was reading that which made me wonder if the current policy is the messy middle ground between FA and PL's priorities.

 

[camspur]

But the PL rule doesn't say anything about your own club - just any English (or Welsh) clubs.

That is true (although not all Welsh clubs only those affiliated to the FA), but the UEFA rule extends that to 4 must be from the youth academy of club they play for.

 

[milo]

Nope he has to be with us
That was made clear at the time otherwise we wouldn’t have “developed him”

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/punditarena.com/football/robredmond/troy-parrott-loan/?amp

The article gets some of the detail wrong. The player has to be registered to a club for three full seasons before they are 21. They don't have to be consecutive seasons. So he could've gone out on loan in January, as long as he completed another full season registered to us before he's 21. That just for the club trained element of the UEFA rules, for homegrown he would be fine being loaned out to any club registered with the FA.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The article gets some of the detail wrong. The player has to be registered to a club for three full seasons before they are 21. They don't have to be consecutive seasons. So he could've gone out on loan in January, as long as he completed another full season registered to us before he's 21. That just for the club trained element of the UEFA rules, for homegrown he would be fine being loaned out to any club registered with the FA.

Yeah but assume he went on loan in January he wouldn’t be home grown this season in Europe with us until he did that extra season so would cost us a squad place as a foreign player
Is that correct?

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

But encouraging youth development to what end, if it's not about the national team? That's what I'm trying to understand.

This is what I’m struggling with as well.

What purpose is there to a rule that penalizes an English player playing for an English club, no matter where they were schooled?

 

[milo]

Yeah but assume he went on loan in January he wouldn’t be home grown this season in Europe with us until he did that extra season so would cost us a squad place as a foreign player
Is that correct?

No, because he is under 21.

 

[spurspinter1]

Do you have a view on why the focus is on being home grown rather than being of English nationality? What's the benefit (to whom) of encouraging PL teams to buy players (of any nationality) that have been developed in England rather than abroad?

I reckon it’s down the getting the best PL product we can. If we don’t limit ourselves to just English, there’s a hope that an English club will find and develop the next CR9 and also that clubs can profit, footballing wise or financially from having successfully run academies.

Unless I’ve missed something I feel I’d prefer it to be not just English players. In this era I think the English talent will rise regardless (and finally not just in our league...)so to be inclusive is only a good thing for the league...It gives our coaching staff more options to work with for HG players, it’s just a case of putting the effort in.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No, because he is under 21.

so foreign under 21s don’t count?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I reckon it’s down the getting the best PL product we can. If we don’t limit ourselves to just English, there’s a hope that an English club will find and develop the next CR9 and also that clubs can profit, footballing wise or financially from having successfully run academies.

Unless I’ve missed something I feel I’d prefer it to be not just English players. In this era I think the English talent will rise regardless (and finally not just in our league...)so to be inclusive is only a good thing for the league...It gives our coaching staff more options to work with for HG players, it’s just a case of putting the effort in.

See above what I posted
The aim of the rule is very much about “English” players being developed under the Elite Player Performance Plan

 

[milo]

so foreign under 21s don’t count?

That's right. He would be on the B list which is unlimited.

https://www.ablueheart.com/champions-league-rules-for-player-registrations

Maximum Squad size:
25 List A players (out of whom two must be goal-keepers) and unlimited List B players

Out of the 25 List A players, a maximum of 17 non-homegrown players are allowed to be in the squad. Other 8 should be homegrown.

Out of the 8 locally trained players aka Homegrown, a maximum of four can be Association-trained, other 4 should be club trained.

What is a ‘locally-trained player’?
These are split into two categories: ‘club trained’ and ‘association trained’.

What is a ‘club-trained player’?
One who, between the age of 15 (or the start of the season during which he turns 15) and 21 (or the end of the season during which he turns 21) has been registered with his current club for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months. This is irrespective of his nationality and age.

What is an ‘association-trained player’?
One who, between the age of 15 (or the start of the season during which the player turns 15) and 21 (or the end of the season during which the player turns 21), has been registered with a club or with other clubs affiliated to the same association as that of his current club for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months. This is irrespective of his nationality and age.

What is the B list of players?
A player may be registered on List B if he is born on or after 1 January 1994 and has been eligible to play for the club concerned for any uninterrupted period of two years since his 15th birthday by the time he is registered with UEFA. Players aged 16 may be registered on List B if they have been registered with the participating club for the previous two years without interruption.

Each club is entitled to register an unlimited number of players on List B during the season. The list must be submitted by no later than midnight CET on the day before the match in question.

 

[camspur]

What is the B list of players?
A player may be registered on List B if he is born on or after 1 January 1994 and has been eligible to play for the club concerned for any uninterrupted period of two years since his 15th birthday by the time he is registered with UEFA. Players aged 16 may be registered on List B if they have been registered with the participating club for the previous two years without interruption.

Each club is entitled to register an unlimited number of players on List B during the season. The list must be submitted by no later than midnight CET on the day before the match in question.

Was it not because he hadn't played for "an uninterrupted period of two years" that they kept him back in January?

 

[elltrev]

That's right. He would be on the B list which is unlimited.

https://www.ablueheart.com/champions-league-rules-for-player-registrations

Maximum Squad size:
25 List A players (out of whom two must be goal-keepers) and unlimited List B players

Out of the 25 List A players, a maximum of 17 non-homegrown players are allowed to be in the squad. Other 8 should be homegrown.

Out of the 8 locally trained players aka Homegrown, a maximum of four can be Association-trained, other 4 should be club trained.

What is a ‘locally-trained player’?
These are split into two categories: ‘club trained’ and ‘association trained’.

What is a ‘club-trained player’?
One who, between the age of 15 (or the start of the season during which he turns 15) and 21 (or the end of the season during which he turns 21) has been registered with his current club for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months. This is irrespective of his nationality and age.

What is an ‘association-trained player’?
One who, between the age of 15 (or the start of the season during which the player turns 15) and 21 (or the end of the season during which the player turns 21), has been registered with a club or with other clubs affiliated to the same association as that of his current club for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months. This is irrespective of his nationality and age.

What is the B list of players?
A player may be registered on List B if he is born on or after 1 January 1994 and has been eligible to play for the club concerned for any uninterrupted period of two years since his 15th birthday by the time he is registered with UEFA. Players aged 16 may be registered on List B if they have been registered with the participating club for the previous two years without interruption.

Each club is entitled to register an unlimited number of players on List B during the season. The list must be submitted by no later than midnight CET on the day before the match in question.

Interesting, so the bolded bits seem to confirm that we can have U21 players in the A-list if we want. So Tanganga, Kane, Winks and Cirkin could be our four club-trained players for the Europa league spot. And Sessegnon, Alli, Hart as 3 association-trained, which leaves us with 17 non-HG spots for a total squad of 24. Seems fine.

 

[milo]

Interesting, so the bolded bits seem to confirm that we can have U21 players in the A-list if we want. So Tanganga, Kane, Winks and Cirkin could be our four club-trained players for the Europa league spot. And Sessegnon, Alli, Hart as 3 association-trained, which leaves us with 17 non-HG spots for a total squad of 24. Seems fine.

It doesn't matter whether they are on the A or B list. We have a cap of 17 non-HG places which is where we have seen players like Foyth excluded before.

 

[milo]

Was it not because he hadn't played for "an uninterrupted period of two years" that they kept him back in January?

Parrott joined us in July 2017.