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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Excellent analysis. I don’t think anyone would disagree that we have some pretty large holes to fill right now and will have more in the next 12 months when certain players leave.

Then again, every squad in the league bar Emirates Marketing Project have holes to fill and players that need to be moved on. Liverpool almost won the double last season and their central midfield is not creative for such a top team. Arsenal still have not solved their frailties at CB and don’t have a decent DM, unless you count Xhaka. United have no out and out, proven centre forward and also have lots on relatively inexperienced young players, not to mention a manager who is unproven in England. Chelsea also have a manager still very inexperienced and lots of young players.

So in a nutshell, all of teams bar Liverpool and Emirates Marketing Project have some pretty big flaws and weaknesses. I absolutely agree we have some major surgery to carry out but I agree with @harr1984, we have the 4th worst squad in the league at worst. That might say more about the decline of the rest of the big 6 than it does about us but the bottom line is we should be in the top 4 by the end of the season.
Arsenal have that Guendouzi fella and the Uraguayan as well as Xhaka. While none are exactly Makalele they are all currently better than broken Dier and very broken Wanyama in that all of them can actually run and make a tackle. I think Liverpool got reasonably lucky with injuries last season, that luck may or may not continue into this season. Unfortunately we haven't been as lucky with injuries and that coupled with a bunch of players not wanting to be here has actually given us a rather small squad to work with with a couple of glaring holes in it.
 
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Sorry but every club has the same issues, thats the whole point of the MANAGER. You know, to manage the squad? Yes we have had injury issues, yes we've had contract issues - guess what, so does everyone else. And some of those issues are of Pochs' own doing. Fans of every club could list all of their squad and do the same. I never said we dont have our problems. but if you think this squad with whatever issues is 'over achieving' by finishing top 4 we are never going to agree. And if Mourinho came in and got us top 4 with this set of players I bet you there wont be anyone on here going 'Wow, we've overachieved'. Poch has credit in the bank, but with the players we have at our disposal getting top 4 is not over achieving....
IF he got us 4th..... He got Man Utd 6th in his first season there. Having taken over a team that finished 5th the previous season. He also got to have the biggest wage bill in the league and spend £150 million net.

If you think any manager consistently getting a team with the 6th biggest wage bill and 10th biggest transfer budget into the top 4 isn't overachieving then you're right.... we're never going to agree. I have asked several times for somebody to point out a manager in any of the top European leagues who has managed to do this. I suspect an example doesn't exist but am happy to be proved wrong (and happy for us to bring that man in if so).

If Mourinho came in and got us 4 top 4 finishes on the spin with the 6th biggest budget and GHod knows how low transfer budget he would absolutely be overachieving.
 
Only time will tell.

And it shouldnt need to be said, but I gain nothing from being right in this instance, do I? (If it turns out to be the case).

Im certainly wouldnt be looking for my "won the internet" trophy if it comes to pass.

All I am saying is what I see - what I believe to be the truth, that is all.

Certainly wouldnt make me happy to be proven correct on this one.
You wouldn't admit when you'd been proven wrong anyway! ;)
 
IF he got us 4th..... He got Man Utd 6th in his first season there. Having taken over a team that finished 5th the previous season. He also got to have the biggest wage bill in the league and spend £150 million net.

If you think any manager consistently getting a team with the 6th biggest wage bill and 10th biggest transfer budget into the top 4 isn't overachieving then you're right.... we're never going to agree. I have asked several times for somebody to point out a manager in any of the top European leagues who has managed to do this. I suspect an example doesn't exist but am happy to be proved wrong (and happy for us to bring that man in if so).

If Mourinho came in and got us 4 top 4 finishes on the spin with the 6th biggest budget and GHod knows how low transfer budget he would absolutely be overachieving.
You're missing the point. As I said previously, he did have us overachieving - we never used to have a squad worthy of top 4. For the past couple of seasons we have. We are no longer over achieving, and you are back to going on about the wage bill again - something which is more reflective of the way Levy runs the club. Our top players could be earning wayyyy more elsewhere, its not reflective of their ability. This is just going round in circles, which is why its pointless debating as I already said....
 
Absolute state of this thread. The arguments against a Manager that has done literal wonders for us really are sad to read.

First of all, this idea that ‘we aren’t seeing the evidence he can turn it around’ just subscribes to a notion of football that I thought we had debunked when Poch first started getting success here. He is a great Manager, he has the skills, the characteristics, the qualities, but he is not the only reason we succeeded. We were able to overcome the disadvantage of less money by building a squad where everyone was bought in to the bigger picture, everyone wanted to be here, everyone had a relentless desire to improve, was suited to the system and everything that entailed. That created a unity, a spirit, a common cause and a team that could overcome structural disadvantages. And that wasn’t only down to Poch. He was a perfect fit for the situation, but it also required Levy reducing expectations on a new Manager for the first time in years. It requires him backing Poch’s moves to sell certain players, to get the ones he wanted, and it required players good enough to take responsibility and step up when they had the opportunity. The entire club was pointed in one direction and that was why we succeeded. Poch was a massive part of it, but Levy and the players did their part as well.

Now, Poch has been calling for a rebuild for two years. He’s wanted it to happen, for various reasons it hasn’t happened. So he’s left with a squad that partly doesn’t have as much of a financial disadvantage anymore, but has lost a bit of unity, the relentless desire to improve, the clear sightedness that Spurs is the best place for them. The issues are not just one of the Manager, it is that the players no longer want to be here in some cases, and in others we haven’t been able to find the buyers. Changing the Manager doesn’t change those issues - it doesn’t make players want to stay, and it doesn’t make it any easier for us to shift them than it has been. Changing Manager puts us on course for a new strategy, and all of the different pieces will have to be in place to make that work, just as before. In this instance, we need certain players out, otherwise no Manager will succeed.

All this talk of tactics or whether he drops this or that player are misnomers IMO. The structural issues need to align for us to really power forward again, like they did 5 years ago. That is how a club is successful.

Secondly, the question really should be answered by those that are claiming it is super simple to just drop the players as he did before...why isn’t he doing it? Please offer any explanation at all as to why, just to show that you have at least thought about the other side of the argument. There simply has to be reasons. It is no use saying he’s missing the obvious thing, as that is just rubbish debating. For what it’s worth, I think he will drop those players, as the season progresses, we will be seeing the new ones player bigger roles. But this isn’t a case of old players refusing to conform to new methods. This is current players simply not having the same relentless spark at this club that they had 5 years ago. It happens, simply because of the passage of time. And if they are part of the squad, we need them, if only to protect and save up the legs of the players we will need later in the year. Not to mention, taking this as an example, Eriksen. We couldn’t sell him, so we get no fee. The silver lining should be we still have a good player in our squad. But not if we bomb him we don’t. It’s not an easy, obvious decision, particularly if he is still working hard in training, just feeling slightly less inspired. How ridiculous would it be to keep him for that final year, not play him, and then lose him for nothing anyway? Is the benefit to the rest of the team so obvious by bombing him? It isnt. But he will he dropped as the season kicks into high gear, it will just be when we don’t need him as much and we’re properly phasing in the new crew.

Mate, you and I usually aren't too far off in opinions, but I disagree here

- Poch was a great manager, and specifically he was a great manager in a club that had ambition to be top 4 and compete for titles.
- He was a great manager in taking a very young squad, making them fit, giving them a system, improving primarily the FBs and incorporating Dele.
- Average age of that squad was ~22 or so.

Poch has not shown himself to be a great manager when
- The requirement is to be top 4 and win things
- The squad is established professionals at the prime of their career
- Getting truly exceptional players to push on (Dele, Eriksen, Lamela)
- Average age of the squad is ~27 or so?

I am completely, completely confused by the absolute acceptance that "the players are jaded/tired/unmotivated due to time, Poch (his job) is unable to motivate them anymore, so lets replace/rebuild"

This squad does NOT need a rebuild, and honestly if Poch believes that, he should fudging go ..

For next season as example
GK situation -> fine as long as Hugo recovers
CB's -> Jan +1 of Foyth/Sanchez/Tangaga/Dier, Toby out, potentially a new CB here (1 player)
FBs -> RB required, Davies +1 at LB, Rose out (1 player)
CM -> Sessegnon, Lamela, Winks, Lo Celso, Dele, N'dombele, Lucas, Sissoko, Eriksen out, either a DM or another creative depending on style (1 player)
Strikers -> Kane, Son, Troy, no one out, nothing needed

At most 3 players, maybe 4 if you want to add another attacking/defensive player
- Fernandes and Dybala already identified and prices apparently were agreed
- So as little as 2 players to find/buy

Poch has no rights .. I don't have a right to have a brick year because I've given my company 17 exceptional years, it just doesn't work that way.

Again, is he really an exceptional manager or was he an exceptional manager for that moment, for that squad, for this club at that particular stage of the journey?

The argument most people have re drop players, formation, whatever is "what is he doing to change the form?" (19 losses in 41 games), seems to me to be the same, same lineups (with occasional nonsense adjustment of 1 player), same fudging diamond, same asking FBS that are not good enough to somehow be Rose/Walker of 3 seasons ago. If he is playing Eriksen because we are more worried about his sale value (with less than 12 months on contract) than results, again he should fudging go …

I think more that Poch is excellent, Levy is excellent, and together they got the right players to be aligned, which put near excellence on the field too.

And the point is that Levy has been here for years, I don’t think the plan, or he ever thought we would be a consistent top 4 team 4 years before getting into the stadium. I think we would have been taking the next step once the stadium was built and we were leveraging the revenues, not this much before and not with this consistency. Poch was a unique fit that did a uniquely fantastic job.

Levy is the success of Spurs, not Poch, Poch is just another step in a long line of progress from the early missteps -> BMJ -> Harry -> Poch and at every step I've heard when tis manager leaves it's going to be a disaster and we will lose all the progress .. really? 18+ years now of almost constant upward trajectory in results, league placement, income, player quality, almost any measure of success on or of field with exception of that very last step (trophies)

As I said mate, respect your opinion but really, the keep Poch argument seems to down to

- He will turn it around because he was good 2 years ago
- He's been a great manager for us (effectively the same point as above)

The reality

- Club is on a miserable run of form for 10 months
- We still have something to salvage this season (PL, CL and FA Cup)
- We can't refresh squad until January, at which stage the above point will no longer likely be relevant
- This should be an easy season (United, Chelsea & Scum are not at their best)

History only shows this ending one way, and the logical answer with two of the best managers in world football available is to not wait for the inevitable.

- What score do we have to lose the CL and Pool matches by to change people's mind?
 
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Eriksen our main creative outlet is leaving, our CB pairing of the last 4 years is leaving, we have no defensive midfield to speak of and our full backs aren't any good - that all needs fixing and that is a rebuild.

We haven't improved the first team in the transfer market since the summer of 15/16 when we signed Son and Alderweireld, if you can't see that that might cause some problems 4 years down the line then that's on you really
 
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Eriksen our main creative outlet is leaving, our CB pairing of the last 4 years is leaving, we have no defensive midfield to speak of and our full backs aren't any good - that all needs fixing and that is a rebuild.

We haven't improved the first team in the transfer market since the summer of 15/16 when we signed Son and Alderweireld, if you can't see that that might cause some problems 4 years down the line then that's on you really

Spot on and as much as some is Poch fault his involvement ends at the negotiation table so is not at fault for players not leaving due to Levy wanting too much for example.

Hence my earlier post when people pull the "manage the squad" line
 
Eriksen our main creative outlet is leaving, our CB pairing of the last 4 years is leaving, we have no defensive midfield to speak of and our full backs aren't any good - that all needs fixing and that is a rebuild.

We haven't improved the first team in the transfer market since the summer of 15/16 when we signed Son and Alderweireld, if you can't see that that might cause some problems 4 years down the line then that's on you really

How we got here is not important, its an excuse and that's the problem, we have and continue to give the squad an excuse. I still think

- Hugo, Gazza, Jan, Sanchez, Tangaga, Foyth, Dier, Davies, Winks, Sissoko, N'dombele, Sessegnon, Dele, Lucas, Lo Celso, Lamela, Son, Kane, Troy can be your base

Even if as everyone thinks for whatever reason we got rid of Toby, Aurier, KWP, Rose, Eriksen, Wanyama all at once, you still have a 19 man squad that again if you added 1 CB, 2 FBs and 1 DM it is not some crazy overhaul, not some "rebuild"
 
You're missing the point. As I said previously, he did have us overachieving - we never used to have a squad worthy of top 4. For the past couple of seasons we have. We are no longer over achieving, and you are back to going on about the wage bill again - something which is more reflective of the way Levy runs the club. Our top players could be earning wayyyy more elsewhere, its not reflective of their ability. This is just going round in circles, which is why its pointless debating as I already said....
Last season we didn't bring in a single player and had virtually our whole first team playing right to the end of the World Cup and then ended up with a bunch of injuries early on and then a bunch of fatigued players later on. Getting 4th and to the CL final was a huge achievement in light of the constraints.

If it's so easy to run a club paying much lower wages than your rivals then why doesn't every other club in the World do the same thing? Do you not accept that in every big European League (and probably the smaller ones as well - I haven't checked). The clubs at the top of the league are the clubs with the biggest wage and transfer budgets? Do you not accept that therefore it is likely that having a bigger budget makes it more likely that you will be at the top end of the table?

If you feel it is pointless debating with somebody who holds a different view point than you do then feel free to stop, although I always thought the whole point of debating was to discuss things with somebody who has a different view point?
 
How we got here is not important, its an excuse and that's the problem, we have and continue to give the squad an excuse. I still think

- Hugo, Gazza, Jan, Sanchez, Tangaga, Foyth, Dier, Davies, Winks, Sissoko, N'dombele, Sessegnon, Dele, Lucas, Lo Celso, Lamela, Son, Kane, Troy can be your base

Even if as everyone thinks for whatever reason we got rid of Toby, Aurier, KWP, Rose, Eriksen, Wanyama all at once, you still have a 19 man squad that again if you added 1 CB, 2 FBs and 1 DM it is not some crazy overhaul, not some "rebuild"
That is still only 19 players. Of those 19 players....
Tananga and Troy are very much youngsters still (although not sure why you missed Skipp here? He is further ahead than either of those IMO). IMO all three of these players should be away from the club on loan anyway. Otherwise we risk them stagnating via getting so few minutes like KWP has. So in reality we're now down to only 16 payers.

Hugo is injured. That's 15.
Lo Celso is injured. That's 14.
Sessegnon is injured. That's 13.
Additionally Dier has been injured and having come back looks like he might have gone the way of Wanyama. I'm also not sure that Foyth shown anything at Spurs to indicate he is ready for first team football?

Anyway even if we count Dier and Foyth that is still only 13 players which is actually a very, very small selection pool indeed.

There's also the issue that in addition to the players that want out/Poch wants out you list above Jan is also now in his last season at Spurs. It is never a good idea to let players get into the final season of their contract. Why has Levy not got an extension agreed yet? At what point will Vertonghen start to play like he is protecting himself in light of only having 8 more months salary left?

Having as many as 6 players (or 7 with Vertonghen) all to be on the way out of the club at the same time is actually a huge rebuild. Especially when 5 of them have played a big part in the team and another one of them became defacto first choice in a position due to having already sold the player previously playing ahead of him.
 
Now that the amazon news has officially broken, can I ask anyone here if they GENUINELY believe it just came about in the last couple of months? Yeah. Right. These things are discussed way way in advance. Let me present a scenario (for the purposes of this post quite obviously conjecture and not an inch more). Imagine how you'd feel, as a old manager who puts a high premium on spirit, vibe, community and discretion, if it was suggested that your workplace be the focus of 24 hour intrusion by a camera crew? Imagine if you said, "Hmmm, I'd really not want that thank you." And imagine if you were ignored. Worse still, imagine you came into work and were simply told this was happening, that your workspace was going to be shared by a camera crew, line editors, editors, lighting people, sound people, at least a half dozen extra people, plus some nifty small unobtrusive cameras that would remain on. It might put a cat among the pigeons.

Somewhere, I think he will always pay for the book. It possibly took away any leverage he might've had in any potential "keeping it under the table" stakes, as it was not a wise project to engage in. But regardless, IF ANY of this happened when raised as a project in the last 8-10 months (or whatever window), then it would not have helped anything.

I have worked, and still do work, with this sort of intense camera scrutiny around me (fortunately there are many bigger fish to be seen then little old me). I can tell you, when it first enters your world, the effect is enormous, and it takes a long time to even start adjusting.
 
Now that the amazon news has officially broken, can I ask anyone here if they GENUINELY believe it just came about in the last couple of months? Yeah. Right. These things are discussed way way in advance. Let me present a scenario (for the purposes of this post quite obviously conjecture and not an inch more). Imagine how you'd feel, as a old manager who puts a high premium on spirit, vibe, community and discretion, if it was suggested that your workplace be the focus of 24 hour intrusion by a camera crew? Imagine if you said, "Hmmm, I'd really not want that thank you." And imagine if you were ignored. Worse still, imagine you came into work and were simply told this was happening, that your workspace was going to be shared by a camera crew, line editors, editors, lighting people, sound people, at least a half dozen extra people, plus some nifty small unobtrusive cameras that would remain on. It might put a cat among the pigeons.

Somewhere, I think he will always pay for the book. It possibly took away any leverage he might've had in any potential "keeping it under the table" stakes, as it was not a wise project to engage in. But regardless, IF ANY of this happened when raised as a project in the last 8-10 months (or whatever window), then it would not have helped anything.

I have worked, and still do work, with this sort of intense camera scrutiny around me (fortunately there are many bigger fish to be seen then little old me). I can tell you, when it first enters your world, the effect is enormous, and it takes a long time to even start adjusting.

First thing I thought after I heard about this was I bet the manager isn’t happy, but he hasn’t a leg to stand on after the book.
 
Now that the amazon news has officially broken, can I ask anyone here if they GENUINELY believe it just came about in the last couple of months? Yeah. Right. These things are discussed way way in advance. Let me present a scenario (for the purposes of this post quite obviously conjecture and not an inch more). Imagine how you'd feel, as a old manager who puts a high premium on spirit, vibe, community and discretion, if it was suggested that your workplace be the focus of 24 hour intrusion by a camera crew? Imagine if you said, "Hmmm, I'd really not want that thank you." And imagine if you were ignored. Worse still, imagine you came into work and were simply told this was happening, that your workspace was going to be shared by a camera crew, line editors, editors, lighting people, sound people, at least a half dozen extra people, plus some nifty small unobtrusive cameras that would remain on. It might put a cat among the pigeons.

Somewhere, I think he will always pay for the book. It possibly took away any leverage he might've had in any potential "keeping it under the table" stakes, as it was not a wise project to engage in. But regardless, IF ANY of this happened when raised as a project in the last 8-10 months (or whatever window), then it would not have helped anything.

I have worked, and still do work, with this sort of intense camera scrutiny around me (fortunately there are many bigger fish to be seen then little old me). I can tell you, when it first enters your world, the effect is enormous, and it takes a long time to even start adjusting.

First thing I thought after I heard about this was I bet the manager isn’t happy, but he hasn’t a leg to stand on after the book.
 
Its what you'd you expect from any manager who viewed his role as long term - someone looking for a way out would throw his players under the bus (ie Mourinho)

Except he has said the opposite 2 weeks ago and Levy said he has players he doesn’t want here 3 days ago.

If they are as bad as being made out, there is no need to protect them.
 
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