Why can't we close a game?

[NWND]

I think you have hit the crux of the discussion mate (as ever, your observations are always good to read even if I don't always agree)...it comes down to whether we will have a system which accommodates a player of this type, a sitting CM so-to-speak. My feeling is that Poch is building a side and system which does not necessarily have a 'specialist' of this nature, instead expecting fitness, intelligence and mobility to dictate the situation. I believe he is very happy with the terrier play of Mason, the slightly calmer but aggressive play of Bentaleb, the fact that most of the time one sits if the other ventures, and that when the balance and work rate of the team is right, we do just fine. I personally feel that a specialist CM of the nature you are discussing will not happen under Poch.

I think most teams are moving away from players like this anyway, as having such a limited destroyer in midfield limits attacking play. We saw under AVB how mundane the play is when you play specialist defensive midfielders. You're effectively narrowing your attacking potential and outlets and the only way you can make this system work long-term is by having some ridiculous beast in the team like Bale who hammers in goals from all over the place out of nowhere when you've turned the game into a midfield slug with few scoring opportunities.

I do not want to return to the sight of Capoue sitting just infront or in line with our CBs, getting the ball, looking up, and passing it backwards or sidewards, because he's a DM and doesn't have the necessary skills. And let's get it right first, a DM who is also good on the ball is so rare only the top teams have them as any such player is going to go for a ridiculous sum.

 

[parklane1]

I think you have hit the crux of the discussion mate (as ever, your observations are always good to read even if I don't always agree)...it comes down to whether we will have a system which accommodates a player of this type, a sitting CM so-to-speak. My feeling is that Poch is building a side and system which does not necessarily have a 'specialist' of this nature, instead expecting fitness, intelligence and mobility to dictate the situation. I believe he is very happy with the terrier play of Mason, the slightly calmer but aggressive play of Bentaleb, the fact that most of the time one sits if the other ventures, and that when the balance and work rate of the team is right, we do just fine. I personally feel that a specialist CM of the nature you are discussing will not happen under Poch.

Good points mate and you may be right about the bolded bit, however I fear that unless he does something we will struggle and will always be open to the counter attack. I must stress that I am not slagging off either Mason or Bentalab as they are good players ( although I do believe that there are some who over estimate the ability of Mason) but neither of them have what I would call a defensive mindset. Add to the fact that Eriksen is not good at this side of the game either we are so often caught out by runners who are not seen ( first) and tracked ( second) leading to our back four being run ragged.

There seems to be a misunderstanding by some who think I am asking for a player just to sit in front of the back four and do nothing else, what we need is a player who will be able to carry the ball but also have a awareness of where the danger is and be able to do something about it because at the moment we do not have that from our central players. Carrick was and still is brilliant at this and we miss that type of player.

 

[braineclipse]

Good points mate and you may be right about the bolded bit, however I fear that unless he does something we will struggle and will always be open to the counter attack. I must stress that I am not slagging off either Mason or Bentalab as they are good players ( although I do believe that there are some who over estimate the ability of Mason) but neither of them have what I would call a defensive mindset. Add to the fact that Eriksen is not good at this side of the game either we are so often caught out by runners who are not seen ( first) and tracked ( second) leading to our back four being run ragged.

There seems to be a misunderstanding by some who think I am asking for a player just to sit in front of the back four and do nothing else, what we need is a player who will be able to carry the ball but also have a awareness of where the danger is and be able to do something about it because at the moment we do not have that from our central players. Carrick was and still is brilliant at this and we miss that type of player.

And also be a quick effective passer. Those players don't exactly grow on trees, and those that are good in all those areas and are good enough for where we want to be will often be out of our reach imo. I'm absolutely fine with us developing our own talented players like Bentaleb for a role like that instead.

Of the attacking midfield trio we've started in recent weeks (Eriksen, Chadli and Townsend) Eriksen is actually looking the best defensively.

 

[parklane1]

And also be a quick effective passer. Those players don't exactly grow on trees, and those that are good in all those areas and are good enough for where we want to be will often be out of our reach imo. I'm absolutely fine with us developing our own talented players like Bentaleb for a role like that instead.

Of the attacking midfield trio we've started in recent weeks (Eriksen, Chadli and Townsend) Eriksen is actually looking the best defensively.

I think Eriksen is going to be a top player but we are in serious trouble if we regard him as our best defensive player. There are so many fans who slag of our back four and blame them for conceding so many goals ( I am not suggesting they are not at fault sometimes) but we have to look at the bigger picture and see that the players in front of them leave them so exposed at so many times. Unless Poch does something about this we will always be vulnerable to the counter attack and balls played over the top.

And the fact ( in your own words) that "these players do not grow on trees" does not mean we do not need one and should not look for one.

 

[braineclipse]

I think Eriksen is going to be a top player but we are in serious trouble if we regard him as our best defensive player. There are so many fans who slag of our back four and blame them for conceding so many goals ( I am not suggesting they are not at fault sometimes) but we have to look at the bigger picture and see that the players in front of them leave them so exposed at so many times. Unless Poch does something about this we will always be vulnerable to the counter attack and balls played over the top.

Agreed to an extent. Not best, but best out of that trio. He's stepped up his work rate and defensive effort hugely this season. Dembele and Lamela ahead of all 3 of those and I think part of recent problems has been down to Townsend and Chadli not doing enough defensively. Even Paulinho looked much more useful defensively when he came on against Leicester.

 

[parklane1]

Agreed to an extent. Not best, but best out of that trio. He's stepped up his work rate and defensive effort hugely this season. Dembele and Lamela ahead of all 3 of those and I think part of recent problems has been down to Townsend and Chadli not doing enough defensively. Even Paulinho looked much more useful defensively when he came on against Leicester.

I do understand that is what you meant, and as for Lamela you are right he would be far better then Townsend. But it still would not solve the problem we have through the middle.

 

[braineclipse]

I do understand that is what you meant, and as for Lamela you are right he would be far better then Townsend. But it still would not solve the problem we have through the middle.

I don't think there is a single solution to our defensive problems, or even to our defensive problems through the middle. As was pointed out on the previous page we've looked a complete shambles at times in previous seasons even with a defensive midfielder, and even if you don't rate Capoue he was a defensive midfielder.

We have to get better at defending as a unit. That probably means some players improving and some players perhaps being replaced/benched.

 

[parklane1]

I don't think there is a single solution to our defensive problems, or even to our defensive problems through the middle. As was pointed out on the previous page we've looked a complete shambles at times in previous seasons even with a defensive midfielder, and even if you don't rate Capoue he was a defensive midfielder.

We have to get better at defending as a unit. That probably means some players improving and some players perhaps being replaced/benched.

Of course there is not a single solution to our problems and I have never suggested there was, however during my working life we used the mantra that a team is only as good as its weakest player/ area ( I understand that not everyone looks at it that way), and there is no doubt ( imo) our main problems come from our inability to give protection to our back four.

I am not suggesting that our back four are blameless but on many occasions they are left out to dry by the cover they are given. We had a problem with scoring goals and we solved that with Kane, but we are still struggling because we concede far to many. A top team (usually) is built on a solid defensive system and unless we start to work on that we will never become one.

 

[braineclipse]

Of course there is not a single solution to our problems and I have never suggested there was, however during my working life we used the mantra that a team is only as good as its weakest player/ area ( I understand that not everyone looks at it that way), and there is no doubt ( imo) our main problems come from our inability to give protection to our back four.

I am not suggesting that our back four are blameless but on many occasions they are left out to dry by the cover they are given. We had a problem with scoring goals and we solved that with Kane, but we are still struggling because we concede far to many. A top team (usually) is built on a solid defensive system and unless we start to work on that we will never become one.

Sure. For me though that protection of the back four starts with the pressing and defensive work of the "front four". Without that the job of the deep two in midfield to protect our back four becomes impossible.

It's not a surprise that in recent weeks when we have so obviously struggled defensively Pochettino has made changes in our "front four", more specifically in our attacking midfield trio, even more specifically he's taken off Townsend. And with either Dembele or Paulinho in that attacking trio we've looked more solid I've thought.

Like you I'm definitely not suggesting that our back 4 is blameless. Nor am I suggesting that the deep two in midfield are blameless. But for me our biggest problem defensively right now is our mediocre at best pressing that leaves both our deep midfielders and our back four exposed way too often.

 

[parklane1]

Sure. For me though that protection of the back four starts with the pressing and defensive work of the "front four". Without that the job of the deep two in midfield to protect our back four becomes impossible.

It's not a surprise that in recent weeks when we have so obviously struggled defensively Pochettino has made changes in our "front four", more specifically in our attacking midfield trio, even more specifically he's taken off Townsend. And with either Dembele or Paulinho in that attacking trio we've looked more solid I've thought.

Like you I'm definitely not suggesting that our back 4 is blameless. Nor am I suggesting that the deep two in midfield are blameless. But for me our biggest problem defensively right now is our mediocre at best pressing that leaves both our deep midfielders and our back four exposed way too often.

As I say I do agree with some of that, I guess if we can see the problems than Poch must ( I hope) and I hope he works it out quickly. We are going around in circles because I believe its our CM which is the biggest problem though.

 

[braineclipse]

As I say I do agree with some of that, I guess if we can see the problems than Poch must ( I hope) and I hope he works it out quickly. We are going around in circles because I believe its our CM which is the biggest problem though.

True that we are going around in circles a bit, probably best to leave it at that.

I have to point out that if our biggest problem currently is CM then Poch isn't really seeing the problem as he obviously has more defensive minded options in CM and he's not really making changes there, before or during games.

 

[sc25]

I have to point out that if our biggest problem currently is CM then Poch isn't really seeing the problem...

In which case, you may be right, huh? Do you believe Bentaleb/Mason will be our midfield pairing in a couple years? (Keep in mind some think Poch will only be here 2 more seasons anyway).

 

[braineclipse]

In which case, you may be right, huh? Do you believe Bentaleb/Mason will be our midfield pairing in a couple years? (Keep in mind some think Poch will only be here 2 more seasons anyway).

I think Bentaleb will be part of the solution longer term. I rate him very highly as a talent, he's emerged at a rather shockingly young age with a composure well beyond his young age. He seems a great pro with a wonderful attitude. And he's already been performing at a very high level in games against top level (PL) opposition.

Mason I'm not as convinced by. I think he's has a lot of the right tools, but he's not as young and (for me) not as outstanding as Bentaleb. I think he could push on from where he is to be a part of a long term solution, but I have to admit there's a chance he doesn't.

Come the summer we need more options for Mason's position, and perhaps Bentaleb's position depending on how Poch rates Stambouli. I don't know if any of the youngsters (Veljkovic, Alli, Winks, Carroll etc) are ready to make that step up, but we need more from our squad than Dembele, Paulinho, Capoue etc have offered this season. If we can find real quality in the market I could see us sign someone that at least for now takes Mason's place in the team or gives him real competition for places. I don't see that as a big problem, Mason will fight for his place and is a good option for more attacking roles too. With European football, rotation and injuries we'll be able to give him games so that he can keep developing. I also think it's much easier to find good players for Mason's role than for Bentaleb's.

I would personally love to see someone with a bit more experience come in. Perhaps even someone with PL experience. When Cabaye was linked away from PSG in January I thought he was a just about perfect option. But he will obviously be pricey and not quite a "Levy signing".

My point was more about right now. Poch has had the option of playing a more defensive midfield duo. He's had Stambouli and Dembele available, both of which partnered with Bentaleb would have made for a more solid "defensive shield". But when he's made changes when we've struggled defensively that's not the changes he's made. Instead he's put on players like Dembele and Paulinho in the attacking midfield trio. That for me says something about what he sees at the current problem. That's not the same as saying that Mason and Bentaleb will be our solution for years to come though.