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Victor Wanyama

Was anyone writing off Walker 12 months ago? (anyone sane at least?)

Also wasn't the biggest voice in punting Dembele on 12 months ago your own voice? I can barely remember a post from last summer in which you didn't have Dembele on your 'sell' list.

What was it that you had seen that made you want to sell Dembele and what have you seen in Son and NJie that makes you take the opposite view to the one that you did with Dembele?

Dembele was always worth working with as he had the right physical attributes to succeed (immense physical strength and extremely close control). Just because Dembele became the player that he always should've been, it doesn't necessarily follow that N'Jie will become a bona-fide 1st team player.

Dembele had no intelligence, especially around releasing the ball. I have no idea how Poch coached that into him.

Son and Njie have had exactly the same problem as Dembele and Walker did the year before - hindering injuries. What makes me think they will succeed is principally the record we have from our new data-led scouting. The success of Alli, Dier, Alder and Wimmer etc. gives me faith those two will work out now they have settled and are hopefully injury free.
 
Dembele had no intelligence, especially around releasing the ball. I have no idea how Poch coached that into him.

Son and Njie have had exactly the same problem as Dembele and Walker did the year before - hindering injuries. What makes me think they will succeed is principally the record we have from our new data-led scouting. The success of Alli, Dier, Alder and Wimmer etc. gives me faith those two will work out now they have settled and are hopefully injury free.

I agree with your comments about injuries delaying progress of players

I massively disagree with you about Dembele passing... It hasn't changed. The movement of the players in front of him has though and iy gives him options that along with having better confidence means we see a more Influential player
 
I agree with your comments about injuries delaying progress of players

I massively disagree with you about Dembele passing... It hasn't changed. The movement of the players in front of him has though and iy gives him options that along with having better confidence means we see a more Influential player

Dembele had runners like bale etc ... he used to hold on to the ball for too long
 
@Gazza the only poor season that Dembele has had was AVB 's second season where the offensive movement around him dried up. At that time I think AVB instructed him to hold on to the ball longer. Dembele still holds on to the ball and drives forward with it, that's always how he's played and it was the same last season. He will never be hoddle in terms of long passing, that is just not his game. But his short passing is adequate. Under Poch though, he releases it slightly earlier and there is more effective offensive movement around the space he creates. It is actually playing in 2 different systems for 2 spurs managers that gives the impression he has improved.
 
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All valid points Rob. Hard to disagree with any of that.

I think poch has made Dembele more assertive and more confident that he passes into more forward positions and releases the ball earlier these days.

The running and general teamwork is a joy to watch and it certainly does make his options easier.

The fact is that he has adjusted to poch and his demands. Fair play to the lad as he was initially struggling under poch.

Dembele now has a role and everyone seems to know their expectations. The lad more has direction and I think it is exactly what he needed.
 
Dembele only had Bale as a runner

Dembele and Sandro as our midfield in their first season together were outstanding

Injuries and other changes impacted that going forward


OK if we are going with bale was our only runner how many times did Dembele play him through?
 
OK if we are going with bale was our only runner how many times did Dembele play him through?

Exactly, Dembele was VERY POOR at seeing his and other people's runs into space, he hogged onto the ball for too long and then the opposition's players would set themselves up again and close the space.
It was a big and obvious failing on Dembele's part and led to a bit of a downward spiral generally in our team's forward players making runs: why would they bust a gut to make them (and intelligently) if the ball never arrived in time?
Dembele and Townsend were probably the biggest culprits imo. Soldado whilst he had other faults in the end, he probably suffered the most from this lack of vision and ability to release the ball earlier.
 
Dembele had no intelligence, especially around releasing the ball. I have no idea how Poch coached that into him.

Son and Njie have had exactly the same problem as Dembele and Walker did the year before - hindering injuries. What makes me think they will succeed is principally the record we have from our new data-led scouting. The success of Alli, Dier, Alder and Wimmer etc. gives me faith those two will work out now they have settled and are hopefully injury free.

I disagree with you regarding Dembele. I don’t think his game has changed much at all. He still holds onto the ball, it’s just that Pochettino looks to use that as a strength. Dembele can take the ball even when tightly marked, hardly ever lose it despite this and then dribble it into an attacking position. Dembele then has 4 attacking options to pass to in Eriksen, Alli, Lamela and Kane, all of which offer good movement in front of him. We are therefore often able to transition defense to attack with just two passes – Dier to Dembele, followed by Dembele to one of the attacking 4 and then we're in business running at a backtracking defence, with our fullbacks busting a gut to get forward in support out wide.

Under AVB the game plan was very different. Instead of looking to get it into the forwards quickly, the team instead moved forward slowly as an entire unit, looking to retain possession, force the other team back and hope create a chance through relentless possession around the opposition’s penalty area, hoping to eventually exploit an opposition player being out of position.

It is interesting that you list Alli, Dier, Wimmer and Alderweireld there as successes. I think all of them share two essential attributes, firstly excellent physical strength and secondly a very good first touch, I think those are the two things that are essential to make it in in the PL and in our system specifically.

Looking at this season’s appearances from Son and N’Jie I am not convinced that either player has a particularly good first touch, neither am I convinced that either of them have much in the way of body strength. Perhaps the latter can be developed? and developing this may aid the first touch as just about any footballer can control the ball well when not under pressure, it is how a player can control the ball when under pressure that is key.

Both players could improve and become bona-fide first team players, but equally either/both could be unsuited to our tactics or the PL in general. Either way, if a 7/10/11 player came along who fitted style of play and budget I think Pochettino would consider them and have few qualms about swapping them into the squad.
 
Exactly, Dembele was VERY POOR at seeing his and other people's runs into space, he hogged onto the ball for too long and then the opposition's players would set themselves up again and close the space.
It was a big and obvious failing on Dembele's part and led to a bit of a downward spiral generally in our team's forward players making runs: why would they bust a gut to make them (and intelligently) if the ball never arrived in time?
Dembele and Townsend were probably the biggest culprits imo. Soldado whilst he had other faults in the end, he probably suffered the most from this lack of vision and ability to release the ball earlier.
Surely Soldado simply suffered from the fact that he couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo. Sometimes his misses were so bad that I wondered whether he'd secretly been betting on 0-0 draws.
 
Surely Soldado simply suffered from the fact that he couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo. Sometimes his misses were so bad that I wondered whether he'd secretly been betting on 0-0 draws.

That and the fact that despite AVB desperately wanting him, he set us up to play in way that soldado was extremely ill suited for.
 
Could we change formation to get Wanyama in as well? We all know that we need a bigger squad. But I just dont believe that Wanyama is going to be happy sitting on the bench. Also Poch has been after him since before he put Dier in that position almost through necessity. I cannot believe that he is going to take Dier out of that position as he is flourishing.

So could we maybe go back to 4-3-3? instead of 4-2-3-1?

Dembele is way better from deep. Every time we try to play him higher up it does not work. He is not someone who wants to take on shots too often. But he could get further up field in a 4-3-3 allowing us to boss more possession and give him more room to move. For me the three behind Kane are not producing enough apart from Alli.

something like this:

-------------Dier----------------

--Wanyama-----Dembele----

-----Alli--------------Eriksen---
--------------Kane----------------

With the full backs giving all the width. Dier, Wanyama and Dembele would be a formidable midfield. It may ruin Alli's position but maybe him and Eriksen can float around in space and be close to Kane than they currently are.
 
Always a good discussion but I think wanyama and dier will not be creative enough. It would possibly be good to utilise if we are winning and want to sew the game up.

Only thing that concerns me about wanyama is his discipline. He does seem to have a poor track record for cards.
 
Could we change formation to get Wanyama in as well? We all know that we need a bigger squad. But I just dont believe that Wanyama is going to be happy sitting on the bench. Also Poch has been after him since before he put Dier in that position almost through necessity. I cannot believe that he is going to take Dier out of that position as he is flourishing.

So could we maybe go back to 4-3-3? instead of 4-2-3-1?

Dembele is way better from deep. Every time we try to play him higher up it does not work. He is not someone who wants to take on shots too often. But he could get further up field in a 4-3-3 allowing us to boss more possession and give him more room to move. For me the three behind Kane are not producing enough apart from Alli.

something like this:

-------------Dier----------------

--Wanyama-----Dembele----

-----Alli--------------Eriksen---
--------------Kane----------------

With the full backs giving all the width. Dier, Wanyama and Dembele would be a formidable midfield. It may ruin Alli's position but maybe him and Eriksen can float around in space and be close to Kane than they currently are.

Away to Madrid/Barca/Bayern possibly. But there's no where near enough creativity without a 4th offensive player for 98% of our names
 
Walker Alderweireld Vertonghen Rose
Wanyama Dier
Lamela Alli Eriksen
Kane
could translate to :

Alderwiereld Vertonghen
Wanyama
Walker--------Dier----------Rose
Alli Eriksen
Lamela Kane
when in attack, with the full backs bombing up and down the wings providing the width

i wonder i also, what with Alderweireld and Vertonghen capable of playing full backs and our two DMs both previously being CBs whether we could use that to give Walker and Rose even more licence to attack - switching them to wingers for parts of the game whilst still having the security of a 'back 4' behind

 
Toby on Wanyama after our 2:2 draw with Southampton last season:

"You have to play better because if you don't play football anymore then they can put more pressure on you, get more guys in the box, and it's very difficult," said Alderweireld. "At Southampton, Victor Wanyama and Morgan Schneiderlin put good pressure so they didn't have time to put the ball in the box - it makes it easier for defenders," he added.

@Gutter Boy
I know you do not rate him but obviously Toby does, and when you consider that he was on Poch's first signings (if not the first) at Southampton and has also chased him for a year I figure this is an excellent signing for us even though you think he is mediocre. I doubt he was signed just as a "backup" as you and others claim
 
Wanyama confirms Spurs move, thanks Southampton fans

Speaking to website soka25east.com, Wanyama confirmed his move and thanked Saints, who continue their search for a new manager after Ronald Koeman moved to Everton.

“I am indeed elated at passing my medicals at Tottenham,” Wanyama said. “It is a new dawn in my career and I believe I will give my best for my new team.

“I want to thank Southampton management and fans for the exceptional time we had together.”I will always have a fond place for them in my heart.”
http://www.football365.com/news/wanyama-confirms-spurs-move-thanks-southampton-fans
 
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