The 'deeper one of the double pivot' midfielder thread

[Gutter Boy]

I thought this might be an interesting starting point for this thread - a recent presentation by Comolli on use of data in scouting, which compares some rumoured targets of ours (Schneiderlin, Kramer and Imbula) alongside Bentaleb

https://vimeo.com/127160940

 

[Cochise]

Nice video. Camacho was rumoured to be on our list back in January/February, maybe that was before our new scouting team had taken a look at stats like these.

They make a very compelling case for Kramer.

 

[Rorschach]

Thanks for that. Very interesting.

(Comolli needs a new accent)

 

[Rorschach]

Nice video. Camacho was rumoured to be on our list back in January/February, maybe that was before our new scouting team had taken a look at stats like these.

They make a very compelling case for Kramer.

....and Chamakh

 

[Yiddo]

So we need to sign Kramer and Chamakh for next season then?

 

[Superhudd]

Would love to have seen Mason instead of Benteleb on that.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Would love to have seen Mason instead of Benteleb on that.

Because you think it will evidence his effectiveness, or lack of?

For me it wouldn't be a fair comparison, as in contrast Mason is the 'advance one of the double pivot'

 

[milo]

I thought this might be an interesting starting point for this thread - a recent presentation by Comolli on use of data in scouting, which compares some rumoured targets of ours (Schneiderlin, Kramer and Imbula) alongside Bentaleb

https://vimeo.com/127160940

Thanks for posting GB.

I'd be interested in hearing the views of some of the posters who are sceptical about the use of data/analysis in player recruitment.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Interesting piece that GB. Thanks for posting.

 

[Superhudd]

Because you think it will evidence his effectiveness, or lack of?

For me it wouldn't be a fair comparison, as in contrast Mason is the 'advance one of the double pivot'

No, just would like to know where he is at, in comparison to others. Not necessarily those who were compared to Benteleb, although I thought Imbula played slightly more attacking than a holding midfielder would.

 

[DubaiSpur]

The big hole is a CF to rotate with Kane. The smaller hole is the lack of a real 'DM' behind Dier. If we can get one or both of those right in January, we'll have a fantastic shot of finishing in the top four and very possibly higher, given the inconsistency of City, the turgidity of United, Leicester's coming (inevitable) fall-away and Arsenal's biblical injury list. It obviously has to be done with players Poch wants, but I do hope we give it a damn good shot.

 

[braineclipse]

The big hole is a CF to rotate with Kane. The smaller hole is the lack of a real 'DM' behind Dier. If we can get one or both of those right in January, we'll have a fantastic shot of finishing in the top four and very possibly higher, given the inconsistency of City, the turgidity of United, Leicester's coming (inevitable) fall-away and Arsenal's biblical injury list. It obviously has to be done with players Poch wants, but I do hope we give it a damn good shot.

Agreed on the Kane front. But it has to be a very good fit. Would rather see us sign no one than sign someone that doesn't really suit the system.

Disagree on the DM... Bentaleb and Dembele that can both play that role/position. Bringing in a backup seems contrary to our current policy of trusting young players. Bentaleb was very good last season in a team that was more disjointed and alongside Mason whose not as solid defensively as Dembele who has been called on in a deeper role against the bigger teams this season. We should trust him to up his game in this stronger team when given the chance imo, and I think Pochettino will do just that.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Agreed on the Kane front. But it has to be a very good fit. Would rather see us sign no one than sign someone that doesn't really suit the system.

Disagree on the DM... Bentaleb and Dembele that can both play that role/position. Bringing in a backup seems contrary to our current policy of trusting young players. Bentaleb was very good last season in a team that was more disjointed and alongside Mason whose not as solid defensively as Dembele who has been called on in a deeper role against the bigger teams this season. We should trust him to up his game in this stronger team when given the chance imo, and I think Pochettino will do just that.

I actually figured that Bentaleb could get a chance to hone his B2B game, what with Mason on the injury list for what looks like a while: hence, I put him down as cover for Alli. Dembele...I'm not sure I'd want his form curtailed by having to sit and play safe again (as he's had to for much of his career with us).

I'm not saying sign someone outre or expensive enough to be a long-term option: I'm saying someone like that Kevin Vogt character we were linked with in the summer (who plays for mid-table Koln, and is likely to come pretty cheap) would be great.

 

[braineclipse]

I actually figured that Bentaleb could get a chance to hone his B2B game, what with Mason on the injury list for what looks like a while: hence, I put him down as cover for Alli. Dembele...I'm not sure I'd want his form curtailed by having to sit and play safe again (as he's had to for much of his career with us).

I'm not saying sign someone outre or expensive enough to be a long-term option: I'm saying someone like that Kevin Vogt character we were linked with in the summer (who plays for mid-table Koln, and is likely to come pretty cheap) would be great.

I'm not a big fan of a cheap backup option when we have youngsters looking to break through (or continue their progress) in that position.

Playing Vogt (or someone like him) instead of Bentaleb might make us stronger right now. That for me is a huge massive "might" though as I rate Bentaleb very highly. I know nothing about Vogt, but I'm guessing there's also a chance he doesn't adapt well and ends up making us worse than Bentaleb would have made us... But long term there's not much doubt that giving that game time to Bentaleb instead will make him develop into a better player. A player that 2-3 years down the line could be a massively important first team player for us. This very much seems to be our current philosophy. Pochettino is putting a lot of trust into his young players. Signing a backup to Dier seems contrary to our current approach.

Up front we don't really have any youngsters close to breaking through at the moment. If Poch sees Clinton (or Son) as a potential striker in the future I think some of the same argument holds. But it's still different as no one really looks a replacement for Kane in terms of the role he plays in the team. I could see an argument for bringing in a more experienced striker. Though again I would prefer someone young that can develop into a better player under Poch.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I'm not a big fan of a cheap backup option when we have youngsters looking to break through (or continue their progress) in that position.

Playing Vogt (or someone like him) instead of Bentaleb might make us stronger right now. That for me is a huge massive "might" though as I rate Bentaleb very highly. I know nothing about Vogt, but I'm guessing there's also a chance he doesn't adapt well and ends up making us worse than Bentaleb would have made us... But long term there's not much doubt that giving that game time to Bentaleb instead will make him develop into a better player. A player that 2-3 years down the line could be a massively important first team player for us. This very much seems to be our current philosophy. Pochettino is putting a lot of trust into his young players. Signing a backup to Dier seems contrary to our current approach.

Up front we don't really have any youngsters close to breaking through at the moment. If Poch sees Clinton (or Son) as a potential striker in the future I think some of the same argument holds. But it's still different as no one really looks a replacement for Kane in terms of the role he plays in the team. I could see an argument for bringing in a more experienced striker. Though again I would prefer someone young that can develop into a better player under Poch.

Well, the way I'm looking at it is simply that there's a reason we tried for the likes of Schneiderlin, McCarthy and co., and there's a reason we turned Dier into a DM to begin with: if Poch was satisfied with Bentaleb's performances at DM (alongside Mason last season), then a radical move like that wouldn't have been necessary. As we're now seeing, it appears that Poch can seriously improve the attributes of any player: perhaps Bentaleb's defensive game wasn't something Poch thought could be improved quickly enough to persist with him as a DM heading into this season, or perhaps there's another reason for the DM shift we're not entirely seeing.

Bentaleb has skills,no doubt: skills that will make him beastly in the future if further improved upon. He passes well (long and short), he tackles and hustles reasonably well, he dribbles well and he's aggressive and fearless in the challenge. However, from my position earlier in the summer (when I think I actually advocated his usage as a DM), I now feel like he'd be better used as a B2B midfielder like Alli: perhaps rotating with him when the lad (inevitably) tires heading into the second half of the season, or playing in his position with Alli shifted further up into the AM position. Either way, I don't see him as a 'sitting' DM a la Dier: and since we don't have a like-for-like replacement for the lad (or any replacement, really, unless we want to constrain Dembele again by making him play there), I feel that's a smaller hole that needs filling. Not as urgently as CF backup for Kane, but still a hole nonetheless. Hence Vogt (who's still only 24, has played alongside Wimmer, and has, iirc, a good long pass on him to boot).

 

[the dza]

Bentaleb has skills,no doubt: skills that will make him beastly in the future if further improved upon. He passes well (long and short), he tackles and hustles reasonably well, he dribbles well and he's aggressive and fearless in the challenge. However, from my position earlier in the summer (when I think I actually advocated his usage as a DM), I now feel like he'd be better used as a B2B midfielder like Alli: perhaps rotating with him when the lad (inevitably) tires heading into the second half of the season, or playing in his position with Alli shifted further up into the AM position. Either way, I don't see him as a 'sitting' DM a la Dier:.

I agree with this, although I could see Alli making the number 10/AM spot his own and Bentaleb backing him up in that position, or providing an option deeper alongside Dier (or whoever ends up being Dier's backup).

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I agree with this, although I could see Alli making the number 10/AM spot his own and Bentaleb backing him up in that position, or providing an option deeper alongside Dier (or whoever ends up being Dier's backup).

Well, the way I'm looking at it is simply that there's a reason we tried for the likes of Schneiderlin, McCarthy and co., and there's a reason we turned Dier into a DM to begin with: if Poch was satisfied with Bentaleb's performances at DM (alongside Mason last season), then a radical move like that wouldn't have been necessary. As we're now seeing, it appears that Poch can seriously improve the attributes of any player: perhaps Bentaleb's defensive game wasn't something Poch thought could be improved quickly enough to persist with him as a DM heading into this season, or perhaps there's another reason for the DM shift we're not entirely seeing.

Bentaleb has skills,no doubt: skills that will make him beastly in the future if further improved upon. He passes well (long and short), he tackles and hustles reasonably well, he dribbles well and he's aggressive and fearless in the challenge. However, from my position earlier in the summer (when I think I actually advocated his usage as a DM), I now feel like he'd be better used as a B2B midfielder like Alli: perhaps rotating with him when the lad (inevitably) tires heading into the second half of the season, or playing in his position with Alli shifted further up into the AM position. Either way, I don't see him as a 'sitting' DM a la Dier: and since we don't have a like-for-like replacement for the lad (or any replacement, really, unless we want to constrain Dembele again by making him play there), I feel that's a smaller hole that needs filling. Not as urgently as CF backup for Kane, but still a hole nonetheless. Hence Vogt (who's still only 24, has played alongside Wimmer, and has, iirc, a good long pass on him to boot).

I think there is a need for some direct like for like cover for Dier. Because of his emergence the double pivot has well and truly gone.

Dier is a solid (solid as you can get) screen for the back four, a traditional holding midfielder, that can cope on his own if he has too. A by product of this is the other midfielders can do as they like safe in the knowledge that Eric is there. They still defend/press as that's the way we play.

Another positive outcome is all of Mason,Nabil,Dembele,Alli benefit from this as they are not looking over their shoulders so much making sure they're not f*cking up defensively, but focusing forward, being creatively minded or using b2b power. All these things are far more in harmony with their natural game.

I think Nabil, Dembele or even Toby could do a good job, as long as we're not weakening other areas by shifting them. Like Kane he will need a rest, starting next thursday.

Edit:Thats why i thought Veljkovic would at least be with the squad. Pretty much the only player doing the same as Dier. ie CH doin th DM transition, and by all reports doing it well. Head scratcher.

 

[braineclipse]

Well, the way I'm looking at it is simply that there's a reason we tried for the likes of Schneiderlin, McCarthy and co., and there's a reason we turned Dier into a DM to begin with: if Poch was satisfied with Bentaleb's performances at DM (alongside Mason last season), then a radical move like that wouldn't have been necessary. As we're now seeing, it appears that Poch can seriously improve the attributes of any player: perhaps Bentaleb's defensive game wasn't something Poch thought could be improved quickly enough to persist with him as a DM heading into this season, or perhaps there's another reason for the DM shift we're not entirely seeing.

Bentaleb has skills,no doubt: skills that will make him beastly in the future if further improved upon. He passes well (long and short), he tackles and hustles reasonably well, he dribbles well and he's aggressive and fearless in the challenge. However, from my position earlier in the summer (when I think I actually advocated his usage as a DM), I now feel like he'd be better used as a B2B midfielder like Alli: perhaps rotating with him when the lad (inevitably) tires heading into the second half of the season, or playing in his position with Alli shifted further up into the AM position. Either way, I don't see him as a 'sitting' DM a la Dier: and since we don't have a like-for-like replacement for the lad (or any replacement, really, unless we want to constrain Dembele again by making him play there), I feel that's a smaller hole that needs filling. Not as urgently as CF backup for Kane, but still a hole nonetheless. Hence Vogt (who's still only 24, has played alongside Wimmer, and has, iirc, a good long pass on him to boot).

Looking for another DM/converting Dier when it looked like Mason and Bentaleb were the only players we had in the squad good enough for the two deep midfield roles proves nothing. Of course we wanted more options in midfield. We were outright lucky (and good) last season that two young and inexperienced players like Mason and Bentaleb were as consistent as they were.

Bentaleb was the more defensive out of him and Mason last season. Quite clearly so in my opinion. Why he's being written off as even an option for the DM role right now is baffling to me.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Looking for another DM/converting Dier when it looked like Mason and Bentaleb were the only players we had in the squad good enough for the two deep midfield roles proves nothing. Of course we wanted more options in midfield. We were outright lucky (and good) last season that two young and inexperienced players like Mason and Bentaleb were as consistent as they were.

Bentaleb was the more defensive out of him and Mason last season. Quite clearly so in my opinion. Why he's being written off as even an option for the DM role right now is baffling to me.

It proves nothing that, despite supposedly having Bentaleb as a DM option, Poch chose to firstly pursue a host of expensive DM players, and secondly, convert Dier to a DM and play him in that DM spot ahead of Bentaleb (who took up the B2B role in our first game against United)?

Bentaleb was the more defensive out of him and Mason, agreed. However, I don't think that makes him a great defensive midfielder in and of itself should his presence be required for a period of months (should Dier get injured, for example): I think his future lies in a tough-tackling B2B role a la Alli, and that his positioning isn't as great as one would hope for from a 'pure' DM (something Dier also struggled with early on, before growing into the role over the past couple of months). Hence the cheap backup suggestion.

 

[braineclipse]

It proves nothing that, despite supposedly having Bentaleb as a DM option, Poch chose to firstly pursue a host of expensive DM players, and secondly, convert Dier to a DM and play him in that DM spot ahead of Bentaleb (who took up the B2B role in our first game against United)?

Bentaleb was the more defensive out of him and Mason, agreed. However, I don't think that makes him a great defensive midfielder in and of itself should his presence be required for a period of months (should Dier get injured, for example): I think his future lies in a tough-tackling B2B role a la Alli, and that his positioning isn't as great as one would hope for from a 'pure' DM (something Dier also struggled with early on, before growing into the role over the past couple of months). Hence the cheap backup suggestion.

No. I don't it proves anything when Bentaleb looked like our only read DM option. Seems pretty standard for our strategy when we have only one capable player for a role:

1. Try to sign the best player possible. If that fails:
2. Trust a young player with real talent to step it up.

Away to United with Mason returning from injury Poch chose Dier and Bentaleb. Again I don't think this tells us much...

It might be that Pochettino agrees with you and sees Bentaleb as better for a B2B role in the future. If that's the case a backup DM makes sense, if he also sees him as not really even capable in the deeper role at this point. For me he seems better for the deeper role, but I accept that predicting what a young talented player's best role will be is speculative most of the time. I have seen no real sign that Pochettino sees Bentaleb more as a B2B player though. And for me I would rather see us give game time to our clearly very talented young players rather than to "backup options".