The Crossroads...

[Jurgen the German]

@Finney Is Back, you make some valid points and I’m not entirely unsympathetic to the challenges Poch has had to endure during his time here. Personally, I think the summer window of the 2017/18 season was poorly handled. For example, We knew walker was going but waited until after the season started to replace him. We all know our transfer policy last season was borderline absurd and negligent.

However, you seem to be overlooking (either deliberately or just by accident) that every other team in the league besides Emirates Marketing Project have some pretty big holes to fill;

Chelsea lost their best player, have a new manager and can’t sign anyone.

United have a relatively inexperienced manager, no recognised striker and a team full of young players or Pogba who doesn’t want to be there.

Arsenal’s defence is still poor. Their manager doesn’t even speak good English so can’t effectively communicate his ideas across.

Liverpool are the strongest of the rest but even they gave a very average centre midfield.

When Poch came in, he instantly started overachieving. For the last 8 months, he has not got the best out of the resources he has at his disposal. I fully accept the squad needs a clear out but I simply don’t buy that we need new players to improve immediately. We have more than enough talent to finish in the top 4, even with our deficiencies. Our form over the whole calendar year has been relegation standard. There’s simply no excuse for the team performing to the standard it has been doing since January.

I’m not saying he’s done but there needs to be signs that things are heading in the right direction. Do you think that is the case now?

As for the budget debate, yes it’s impossible to argue that Poch has done better comparatively speaking to most of his contemporaries. Having said that, most of our players would get more money elsewhere if they went to clubs of a similar/bigger stature than us so it’s essentially a red herring. The wage bill doesn’t reflect the market rate or the quality of the squad.

 

[lurker of old]

Our form over the whole calendar year has been relegation standard.
I read today that in Poch's last 30 games, his record is 2 points worse than Christian Gross's last 30. Hopefully that won't be the case by Sunday evening....

 

[SteveAWOL]

Great post which pretty much sums up my feelings.

I’d add that it’s my belief that we have seen the last of a managing dynasty at a club, a la Fergie and Wenger. The game has changed and the players have the power. For me, Poch at Spurs is akin to Klopp at Dortmund (without the trophies). As Klopp said, in the sixth season the players simply stopped listening to him.

I see that Klopp also had to contend with lots of injuries to fullbacks and midfielders, a decrease in pressing intensity and experimented with diamond formation...

http://outsideoftheboot.com/2015/06/11/borussia-dortmund-what-went-wrong/

https://statsbomb.com/2014/12/borussia-dortmund-whats-gone-wrong/

 

[Raziel]

I don’t agree with that, yes revenue can be spent on transfers and player salaries, but it can also be spent on facilities, coaching and counselling.

Yes other clubs can spend more than us, but they can’t work harder or smarter.

When did we stop expecting players to improve on the training pitch? When did we stop expecting players to learn from and pay for their mistakes?

Thats where we have gone wrong in the last two years in my opinion, expectations were allowed to drop, there has been no threat to their place, the next man up hasn’t been given a look in.

Interesting leadership quotes/principles that back up your statement (which I agree with)

- "But what I can tell you is this: when it comes to performance standards, It’s not what you preach, it’s what you tolerate"
- “When setting expectations, no matter what has been said or written, if substandard performance is accepted and no one is held accountable—if there are no consequences—that poor performance becomes the new standard.”
- “On any team, in any organization, all responsibility for success and failure rests with the leader. The leader must own everything in his or her world. There is no one else to blame. The leader must acknowledge mistakes and admit failures, take ownership of them, and develop a plan to win.”

 

[Raziel]

He's lost 3 key players Dembele, Eriksen, and Walker, 4 if you count Wanyama. They were not replaced by players of equivalent ability. Therefore will struggle until he finds a solution.

Last season he just about coped with Dembele and Wanyama's loss and the right back situation. This season he has lost Eriksen and we are struggling. This is not making excuses they are just facts.

You are making out as if a team should carry on regardless and mitigation is irrelevant. It doesn't make sense.

Mate, I know this has deteriorated, but @nayimfromthehalfwayline has a point .. you keep failing to answer the question

With Hugo, Gazza, Aurier, Sanchez, Toby, Jan, Rose, Davies, Winks, Sissoko, N'dombele, Lamela, Son, Lucas, Dele, Kane is 11th -14th place in the PL par for course? Should we be expecting no more out of that squad?

Because everyone talking about budgets, our budget is typically 6th-7th in the league, but we aren't 6th or 7th ...

 

[Baleforce]

Interesting leadership quotes/principles that back up your statement (which I agree with)

- "But what I can tell you is this: when it comes to performance standards, It’s not what you preach, it’s what you tolerate"
- “When setting expectations, no matter what has been said or written, if substandard performance is accepted and no one is held accountable—if there are no consequences—that poor performance becomes the new standard.”
- “On any team, in any organization, all responsibility for success and failure rests with the leader. The leader must own everything in his or her world. There is no one else to blame. The leader must acknowledge mistakes and admit failures, take ownership of them, and develop a plan to win.”

as a wise man once said, “we only get what we will settle for”

the last section sums it up for me, to quick with the excuses, failure to take responsibility

 

[thfcsteff]

Interesting leadership quotes/principles that back up your statement (which I agree with)

- "But what I can tell you is this: when it comes to performance standards, It’s not what you preach, it’s what you tolerate"
- “When setting expectations, no matter what has been said or written, if substandard performance is accepted and no one is held accountable—if there are no consequences—that poor performance becomes the new standard.”
- “On any team, in any organization, all responsibility for success and failure rests with the leader. The leader must own everything in his or her world. There is no one else to blame. The leader must acknowledge mistakes and admit failures, take ownership of them, and develop a plan to win.”

I am largely avoiding both this and the Poch thread as I have nothing left to say and it appears no-one else does?

The ONLY thing I’d like to make clear here is that it is possible to hold the viewpoint I (and others) have regarding Pochettino and still have a strong understanding of major businesses. It comes down to the way in which a company is run, the ethos behind it, and the moment at which the financial shape and health is on the verge of being irreparably damaged by another element. We are obviously not there yet.

I agree wholeheartedly with the last point re:leadership and accountability. It is how I work. What requires clear definition in the club’s case is who the leader is? To me, it is Daniel. I love what he has done, and hope he remains as he has been tremendous for us. But he is The Boss. The Leader. And what he says goes. No-one else can agree an incoming deal/salary or indeed an outgoing. It is DL. HE is the Leader. What is MISSING from the point is the fact that the TRUE leaders, those at the VERY top who ARE in final charge, virtually NEVER answer to anyone for any of their mistakes. Again, I love Levy, but he has not ONCE publicly come out and backed Pochettino/assumed any culpability other than answering some Supporters Trust questions about transfers...

 

[Pirate55]

I am largely avoiding both this and the Poch thread as I have nothing left to say and it appears no-one else does?

The ONLY thing I’d like to make clear here is that it is possible to hold the viewpoint I (and others) have regarding Pochettino and still have a strong understanding of major businesses. It comes down to the way in which a company is run, the ethos behind it, and the moment at which the financial shape and health is on the verge of being irreparably damaged by another element. We are obviously not there yet.

I agree wholeheartedly with the last point re:leadership and accountability. It is how I work. What requires clear definition in the club’s case is who the leader is? To me, it is Daniel. I love what he has done, and hope he remains as he has been tremendous for us. But he is The Boss. The Leader. And what he says goes. No-one else can agree an incoming deal/salary or indeed an outgoing. It is DL. HE is the Leader. What is MISSING from the point is the fact that the TRUE leaders, those at the VERY top who ARE in final charge, virtually NEVER answer to anyone for any of their mistakes. Again, I love Levy, but he has not ONCE publicly come out and backed Pochettino/assumed any culpability other than answering some Supporters Trust questions about transfers...

Levy is the leader of the club but Poch is the leader of the team/squad. Levy doesn't pick the team, decide formations and tactics, make substitutions, organise defence, midfield or attack, prepare dead balls, and last but not least motivate the players to perform.

Moreover, to suggest Levy buys/sells players or talks contracts renewal without a substantial input from Poch is just fanciful thinking.

 

[thfcsteff]

Levy is the leader of the club but Poch is the leader of the team/squad. Levy doesn't pick the team, decide formations and tactics, make substitutions, organise defence, midfield or attack, prepare dead balls, and last but not least motivate the players to perform.

Moreover, to suggest Levy buys/sells players or talks contracts renewal without a substantial input from Poch is just fanciful thinking.

But like it or not Pirate (and let's face it, you and others don't like anything that doesn't blame Poch 1000% for everything including climate change and Brexit) Levy IS the boss because ONLY Levy (and I suppose Lewis) can decide whether Pochettino continues at the club.

So why, would you speculate, hasn't Daniel handed him his p45?



FWIW if you think Pochettino has any say in the financial aspects of player contracts, I can assure you you're mistaken. If he had, it's safe to say that both Mane and Winaldjum (sp?) would've signed for us.

 

[Pirate55]

But like it or not Pirate (and let's face it, you and others don't like anything that doesn't blame Poch 1000% for everything including climate change and Brexit) Levy IS the boss because ONLY Levy (and I suppose Lewis) can decide whether Pochettino continues at the club.

So why, would you speculate, hasn't Daniel handed him his p45?



FWIW if you think Pochettino has any say in the financial aspects of player contracts, I can assure you you're mistaken. If he had, it's safe to say that both Mane and Winaldjum (sp?) would've signed for us.

You are (again) wrong to suggest I blame Poch for everything. I have been quite clear ( if you read my posts) that I hold him responsible for what he should be responsible for - ie what happens on the pitch. Moreover, I have never suggested he should be sacked NOW and therefore am not surprised at all Levy hasn’t pulled the trigger yet.

My position remains the same on Poch. I would give him till Christmas. He has enough credit in the bank for me to see if he can turn it round by then. However, if performances and results remain the same as they have for the whole of 2019 with no sign of even the direction of travel improving, then he should go and a new coach be given the transfer budgets to mould his own team.

To your point on Mane and Wilnajium, of course Levy has the financial final say on what is possible for our club. Otherwise Poch could ask for Messi, Ronaldo, VDV, Maguire etc etc who are clearly outside the financial structure of the club.

 

[Pirate55]

@thfcsteff please answer me this. If you had an employee at work who had been failing at his job for almost a year despite adequate tools at his disposal and with no sign of improvement, would you not take action?

BTW, regarding your reply to an earlier post of mine, the KISS principle is a well known senior management tool. I am surprised you haven’t heard of it. The final S regarding Stupid, was not deigned by me to be a dig specifically aimed at Poch.

 

[thfcsteff]

@thfcsteff please answer me this. If you had an employee at work who had been failing at his job for almost a year despite adequate tools at his disposal and with no sign of improvement, would you not take action?

BTW, regarding your reply to an earlier post of mine, the KISS principle is a well known senior management tool. I am surprised you haven’t heard of it. The final S regarding Stupid, was not deigned by me to be a dig specifically aimed at Poch.

Regarding the first question. I would certainly take action. What action would depend on that employee’s history and previous levels of application and productivity; “action” can suggest many things. I would also gauge the adequacy of tools versus the current environment. So yes, absolutely, a series of actions would have to be taken to gauge why we were where we were.

As to your second point, I was unaware of the phrase yes, but it appears I practice a large degree of it in my life and profession (internet forums excepted!)...my biggest issue with implementing a tool which as I understand it is commonly applied primarily within the engineering industry is that it does not work as smoothly in football. The variables in surrounding factors are both numerous and often unknown to many. For example, Lamela has been playing well yet has not featured in every match causing some disgruntlement. The thought was aired that perhaps he was being protected from injury issues. Had the KISS theory been applied, put simply he was a starting 11 player on form. As we now see, he is once again injured. So was Poch trying to nurse him around this? We just don’t know, which is why I find the principle hard to apply directly.

Football is never “KiSSier” than when you’re winning as nothing needs to change or be tinkered with.

Hopefully I have answered your questions.

 

[Pirate55]

Regarding the first question. I would certainly take action. What action would depend on that employee’s history and previous levels of application and productivity; “action” can suggest many things. I would also gauge the adequacy of tools versus the current environment. So yes, absolutely, a series of actions would have to be taken to gauge why we were where we were.

As to your second point, I was unaware of the phrase yes, but it appears I practice a large degree of it in my life and profession (internet forums excepted!)...my biggest issue with implementing a tool which as I understand it is commonly applied primarily within the engineering industry is that it does not work as smoothly in football. The variables in surrounding factors are both numerous and often unknown to many. For example, Lamela has been playing well yet has not featured in every match causing some disgruntlement. The thought was aired that perhaps he was being protected from injury issues. Had the KISS theory been applied, put simply he was a starting 11 player on form. As we now see, he is once again injured. So was Poch trying to nurse him around this? We just don’t know, which is why I find the principle hard to apply directly.

Football is never “KiSSier” than when you’re winning as nothing needs to change or be tinkered with.

Hopefully I have answered your questions.

Thank you for addressing the questions posed. Your first answer still avoids trying to apportion any blame to Poch.

Do you not think he has, at least to some extent, been the architect of our poor performances over nearly a year? Team selection, tactics, formation,fitness, substitutions and motivation are all down to him and him alone. He has so many top players available to him that his performance has been totally unacceptable for over 10 months now. Compounded by his frankly ludicrous public comments.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Mate, I know this has deteriorated, but @nayimfromthehalfwayline has a point .. you keep failing to answer the question

With Hugo, Gazza, Aurier, Sanchez, Toby, Jan, Rose, Davies, Winks, Sissoko, N'dombele, Lamela, Son, Lucas, Dele, Kane is 11th -14th place in the PL par for course? Should we be expecting no more out of that squad?

Because everyone talking about budgets, our budget is typically 6th-7th in the league, but we aren't 6th or 7th ...

The season isn’t over yet?

 

[Pirate55]

The season isn’t over yet?

We have had nearly a year of poor results and performances. For me, it was the Burnley away game that was the turning point. Before the game , we were within striking distance of the top two and Poch talked up our PL winning possibility. Since we lost that game, we have been on a downward spiral.

 

[parklane1]

The season isn’t over yet?

Are you sure, listening to some you would think it was.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

We have had nearly a year of poor results and performances. For me, it was the Burnley away game that was the turning point. Before the game , we were within striking distance of the top two and Poch talked up our PL winning possibility. Since we lost that game, we have been on a downward spiral.

We also got to a Champions League final in that time. With a dead, unrefreshed squad that had no signings all season and the most players out of any team staying right till the end of the World Cup. Quite often a team that makes it that far in Europe by slightly over achieving to get there has the League form suffer. It happened to Liverpool the season before. Maybe not to the same extent but, they didn’t have no signings and the World Cup hangover to deal with.

 

[Finney Is Back]

@thfcsteff please answer me this. If you had an employee at work who had been failing at his job for almost a year despite adequate tools at his disposal and with no sign of improvement, would you not take action?

BTW, regarding your reply to an earlier post of mine, the KISS principle is a well known senior management tool. I am surprised you haven’t heard of it. The final S regarding Stupid, was not deigned by me to be a dig specifically aimed at Poch.

If one of my management team had outperformed their peers and the market for 4 years in a row and then had a hard time for a period, I would be more than likely to give them the opportunity to turn things around. I would first want to understand why their standards had dropped (had they just been unlucky in the market? Did they have some long terms positions that had a short term down side? Did they want/need better analysts/juniors? etc).

 

[scaramanga]

If one of my management team had outperformed their peers and the market for 4 years in a row and then had a hard time for a period, I would be more than likely to give them the opportunity to turn things around. I would first want to understand why their standards had dropped (had they just been unlucky in the market? Did they have some long terms positions that had a short term down side? Did they want/need better analysts/juniors? etc).

If one of mine's actions (or inaction) were leading to a direct competitor taking away one of our largest revenue streams, they'd have been out of their arse a long time ago.

 

[Robspur12]

If one of mine's actions (or inaction) were leading to a direct competitor taking away one of our largest revenue streams, they'd have been out of their arse a long time ago.

By reaching the Champions League Final and finishing top 4 in the same season, while playing away from home for most of the season, Poch has pretty much maximised the revenues streams though.