The Crossroads...

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

No you're not, you're being a taco and, I credit you with enough intelligence for you to be acting that way on purpose.

Youre a mind reader as well now are you?

I find it interesting to see how it goes. Im pretty sure I know myself better than you. Though Im pretty sure you dont even know who I am, having been debating more with your imagination than myself.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I am trying out the other side of the coin, I must say its quite refreshing. Just make excuses for everything, dont think about it too much, I can see the appeal.

No you're not. You're being a taco.... and, for some reason, I credit you with enough intelligence to be doing that on purpose.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Incredible, the irony - i guess it must take so much thought to come up with the manager turning to brick for the answer to everything wrong with the club atm

Do you honestly think Pochettino is getting the best out of what he has available?

Its remarkable how no one will actually answer that question directly. At least, not with out yeah but, no but, excuse, excuse, excuse...

Having had a pre season with the players, having had what? 14 games? Has Pochettino been getting the most out of his resources?

For me its a flat no. I really think he has been underperforming, and were he on his game - we would actually be dandy right now - despite the issues surrounding the club.

How about a second question. Remember when Pochettino joined? Remember the vision he had. The plan. The identity he stamped on the team? Remember that? Do you think Pochettino is doing that job now? If so, doing it as well as he did?

 

[billyiddo]

Its remarkable how no one will actually answer that question directly. At least, not with out yeah but, no but, excuse, excuse, excuse...

I have answered that directly several times and clarified upon request once already and i have seen several other posters answer it too. No one is hiding from that question from what i have seen.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I havent responded, because its not the point. As is very common with you these days, you zero in on a factor beside the point (and rarely even the point I was making) and make the discussion about that. Ignoring anything that actually challenges you.

Do you not see the delicious irony in that statement?

Why focus on the budget so much? Because that way you dont have to admit that Poch has easily one of the top 4 squads in the league, and so top 4 finishes arent actually miraculous.

Players win matches, not budgets.

Managers win matches, through developing and working with players, not through salaries.

Let me explain (again!). Throughout Europe the clubs that pay the most for their players and pay the highest wages are the clubs at the top of their leagues. You dismiss this as being irrelevant, which I find strange. If that fact is irrelevant then do you think it is mere coincidence that the clubs paying the most for players and wages are at the top of their leagues all around Europe?

So If we move to your point about Pochettino easily having one of the top 4 squads in the league. Surely you have to accept that this means Pochettino must've done a great job to be able to build that squad despite not having a lower wage budget than 5 clubs in the league and a lower transfer budget than, what?.... 9 clubs in the league? That can only mean that over the last five seasons Pochettino must have bought well and coached well?

Some teams can afford to buy the finished product. So they do. And that way the end up with excellent players (in theory at least).

Other teams, like us, cant. So we buy very talented young players, develop them, and end up with excellent players.

The journey is different, the destination the same.

OK. So if the destination is the same and it is that easy to do then why can't you find me other examples of clubs in the big European leagues doing the same thing? After all there are more clubs out there like ours with restricted budgets than there are clubs who able to buy the finished product?

If you really are determined to focus on the money aspect so much, perhaps you should be looking at what our players would cost to buy now, rather than what we bought them for? Perhaps then you would see that by working differently, we actually have much more parity with these clubs than you would like to admit.

Interesting.... So you are agreeing that in Pochettino's time he has used his limited budget wisely and developed the players well?

 

[Finney Is Back]

I have answered that directly several times and clarified upon request once already and i have seen several other posters answer it too. No one is hiding from that question from what i have seen.

There is only one person I can see in this thread hiding from questions that they don't like.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Do you not see the delicious irony in that statement?

I did wonder if you might appreciate it. Though its not really clear youve taken it on board.

Let me explain (again!). Throughout Europe the clubs that pay the most for their players and pay the highest wages are the clubs at the top of their leagues. You dismiss this as being irrelevant, which I find strange. If that fact is irrelevant then do you think it is mere coincidence that the clubs paying the most for players and wages are at the top of their leagues all around Europe?

I think it is irrelevant - BECAUSE WE HAVE SET UP IN A WAY TO MITIGATE IT.

We arent playing the game the same way, so the comparison fails.

We are playing in such a way as to balance against the budget disparity.

And that we are where we are the last ten years shows we are doing a good job of it.

The whole argument falls down completely.

So If we move to your point about Pochettino easily having one of the top 4 squads in the league. Surely you have to accept that this means Pochettino must've done a great job to be able to build that squad despite not having a lower wage budget than 5 clubs in the league and a lower transfer budget than, what?.... 9 clubs in the league? That can only mean that over the last four seasons Pochettino must have bought well and coached well?

Thats a process that pre dates Pochettino by some way. For example, half his best players were here when he arrived.

And if you were to go through buys in Pochs time, its actually rather hit and miss.

Question becomes - who do you credit with the transfer policy/choices/execution etc.

As Im sure you are aware its not one mans job, there is no simple answer, so its a rather silly point to try and pin me on Poch being a success(or not) individually on it.

OK. So if the destination is the same and it is that easy to do then why can't you find me other examples of clubs in the big European leagues doing the same thing? After all there are more clubs out there like ours with restricted budgets than there are clubs who able to buy the finished product?

Ive never once said it is that easy to do. See what I mean? You dont even respond to my words, its like you read my posts with an imaginary version of their content.

Tell me though, were Leicester the richest club in the league when the won the premiership? Liverpool the richest club in the CL last season?

You see again - budget is at best an indicator, not a rule. And certainly not a rule when you operate outside of the normal structure.

There are few clubs out there like ours. And it might not be that popular a point to make, but what makes us different is Levy - not Poch.

We have a chairman playing the long game, with a plan to counter the issues clubs of our standing face, and the dogged longevity to see it through.

Why dont you try naming chairman that fit that same bill?

Interesting.... So you are agreeing that in Pochettino's time he has used his limited budget wisely and developed the players well?

Again, straw man. Does Poch exclusively buy who/what he wants? If so - he cant complain about not getting anyone last season. Does he not? If so - your point starts to look rather foolish doesnt it?

Though I do think it raises an interesting point around the development of players.

Just how much credit does Poch get? How would those players have developed otherwise?

Of course its a whole bag of unknowns, but I would suggest when looking at SCBC, the players that left there, and players we have sold - basically none have looked as good when not in Pochs system.

Is Poch a great coach and developer of players? Or does he have an incredibly effective system that makes them all look that much better when part of the whole?

Its not likely to be a discussion for this thread, but my suspicion is the latter, rather than former.

Which is not to try and denigrate Poch, rather to say I question his "developing players" credentials, and applaud the way he sets teams up.

 

[Robspur12]

Do you honestly think Pochettino is getting the best out of what he has available?

Its remarkable how no one will actually answer that question directly. At least, not with out yeah but, no but, excuse, excuse, excuse...

Having had a pre season with the players, having had what? 14 games? Has Pochettino been getting the most out of his resources?

For me its a flat no. I really think he has been underperforming, and were he on his game - we would actually be dandy right now - despite the issues surrounding the club.

How about a second question. Remember when Pochettino joined? Remember the vision he had. The plan. The identity he stamped on the team? Remember that? Do you think Pochettino is doing that job now? If so, doing it as well as he did?

He's lost 3 key players Dembele, Eriksen, and Walker, 4 if you count Wanyama. They were not replaced by players of equivalent ability. Therefore will struggle until he finds a solution.

Last season he just about coped with Dembele and Wanyama's loss and the right back situation. This season he has lost Eriksen and we are struggling. This is not making excuses they are just facts.

You are making out as if a team should carry on regardless and mitigation is irrelevant. It doesn't make sense.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

He's lost 3 key players Dembele, Eriksen, and Walker, 4 if you count Wanyama. They were not replaced by players of equivalent ability. Therefore will struggle until he finds a solution.

Last season he just about coped with Dembele and Wanyama's loss and the right back situation. This season he has lost Eriksen and we are struggling. This is not making excuses they are just facts.

You are making out as if a team should carry on regardless and mitigation is irrelevant. It doesn't make sense.

Eriksen is playing like an utter turd, and Lamela and Alli are watching from the bench.

Forgive me for thinking we actually have alternatives that would be doing a better job not being utilised.

We have more than 11 good players, it doesnt make sense to me that people think we need to buy before we can be playing better.

 

[Robspur12]

Eriksen is playing like an utter turd, and Lamela and Alli are watching from the bench.

Forgive me for thinking we actually have alternatives that would be doing a better job not being utilised.

We have more than 11 good players, it doesnt make sense to me that people think we need to buy before we can be playing better.

Neither Dele nor Lamela have proven themselves as alternatives for Eriksen. Neither dictate our play in the same way. No more than Sissoko is a replacement for Dembele. So you will get a drop in performance.

 

[scaramanga]

He's lost 3 key players Dembele, Eriksen, and Walker, 4 if you count Wanyama. They were not replaced by players of equivalent ability. Therefore will struggle until he finds a solution.

Last season he just about coped with Dembele and Wanyama's loss and the right back situation. This season he has lost Eriksen and we are struggling. This is not making excuses they are just facts.

You are making out as if a team should carry on regardless and mitigation is irrelevant. It doesn't make sense.

Right back situation is entirely on Poch.

He could have sold Trippier at a massive premium after the world cup and bought a decent right back.

 

[Robspur12]

Right back situation is entirely on Poch.

He could have sold Trippier at a massive premium after the world cup and bought a decent right back.

Two things 1) that assumes somebody wanted to buy him.
2) you are confident in the alternative.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Neither Dele nor Lamela have proven themselves as alternatives for Eriksen. Neither dictate our play in the same way. No more than Sissoko is a replacement for Dembele. So you will get a drop in performance.

Lamela did a fine job against Leicester in that position and was promptly dropped.

Alli did a very credible job, albeit in a different way, in that position against RSB.

A shift in how we work, a slight tweak in tactic - the definition of managing - and we are actually in no bad shape at all.

Though if you really require an exact like for like replacement in order to continue to function well as a team, well that opens up a whole new area to discuss...

 

[scaramanga]

Two things 1) that assumes somebody wanted to buy him.
2) you are confident in the alternative.

1) After the World Cup there would have been a lot of suitors - he did a Leicester that summer
2) I have little confidence this version of Poch would have spent that well

 

[Robspur12]

Lamela did a fine job against Leicester in that position and was promptly dropped.

Alli did a very credible job, albeit in a different way, in that position against RSB.3

A shift in how we work, a slight tweak in tactic - the definition of managing - and we are actually in no bad shape at all.

Though if you really require an exact like for like replacement in order to continue to function well as a team, well that opens up a whole new area to discuss...

Lamela is good but no substitute for Eriksen. A slight tweak? Are you an elite manager? That worked out well replacing Dembele. This isn't school football!

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Lamela is good but no substitute for Eriksen.

If you expect an exact duplicate to replace him, then who is? And as I say - if you really think thats the truth (if) then you need to consider the whole can of worms that opens.

If you dont - then as Leicester and RSB showed - Lamela and Alli are perfectly capable of doing well in the position.

We could be shaping up now without Eriksen, IMO playing better, and setting ourselves along the way toward the mystical transition that is due but doesnt seem to be happening.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I did wonder if you might appreciate it. Though its not really clear youve taken it on board.

Touche.

I think it is irrelevant - BECAUSE WE HAVE SET UP IN A WAY TO MITIGATE IT.

We arent playing the game the same way, so the comparison fails.

We are playing in such a way as to balance against the budget disparity.

And that we are where we are the last ten years shows we are doing a good job of it.

The whole argument falls down completely.

So just to get this clear, you really do think it is mere coincidence that the clubs at the top of their leagues around Europe are those that spend the most on transfers and wages in their league?

If this argument falls down completely then where are all of these other clubs, equally or more budget constrained that we have been, who have been able to balance against the budget disparity as well as we have?

If having a bigger budget is completely irrelevant as you say it is, then why on earth has Levy embarked on such a risky and disruptive activity of building a new stadium, making us homeless in the interim when our squad was perhaps at its very peak for success? Why do we bother putting a sponsor's name on the front of our shirts (especially as they look so much nicer without)? Why do we bother going thousands of miles around the globe to play pre-season friendlies? Surely all of this is pointless as there are these magic ways to balance against the budget disparity that only Tottenham Hotspur has the magic formula for?

Thats a process that pre dates Pochettino by some way. For example, half his best players were here when he arrived.

And if you were to go through buys in Pochs time, its actually rather hit and miss.

Question becomes - who do you credit with the transfer policy/choices/execution etc.

As Im sure you are aware its not one mans job, there is no simple answer, so its a rather silly point to try and pin me on Poch being a success(or not) individually on it.

Sorry - I wasn't aware that we had qualified for the CL in those two seasons before Poch arrived.... To be fair I did sleep through a lot of AVB's time at the club so maybe I simply missed it?

I agree that half of the players that ended up becoming our best players were here when Pochettino arrived. However those players certainly were not (with the probable exception of Vertonghen) before Pochettino arrived. Do you feel that those players were were already considered to be top class players?

Equally if you feel that Pochettino doesn't deserve any credit for developing those players, then can I assume that you feel it doesn't really doesn't matter who manages our club?

Ive never once said it is that easy to do. See what I mean? You dont even respond to my words, its like you read my posts with an imaginary version of their content.

Tell me though, were Leicester the richest club in the league when the won the premiership? Liverpool the richest club in the CL last season?

You see again - budget is at best an indicator, not a rule. And certainly not a rule when you operate outside of the normal structure.

There are few clubs out there like ours. And it might not be that popular a point to make, but what makes us different is Levy - not Poch.

We have a chairman playing the long game, with a plan to counter the issues clubs of our standing face, and the dogged longevity to see it through.

Why dont you try naming chairman that fit that same bill?

Awesome. You agree that it's not easy to do what we have done. We're getting somewhere.

What Leicester did was amazing. All credit to them. That was a fairytale season. The fact that they were a 5,000 to 1 shot though shows just how difficult and unexpected doing this is. The fact that they then dropped out of the top 4 for the next few seasons that immediately followed also showed how hard it is to sustain a place punching above your weight.

Liverpool did fantastically well to reach the CL final last year. I'm not sure where their £150 million spending and £240 million wage bill has them in European terms - I would imagine top 5 and top 8? That team they overcame in the final to win it also did really well to usurp all those other richer clubs right?

Again, straw man. Does Poch exclusively buy who/what he wants? If so - he cant complain about not getting anyone last season. Does he not? If so - your point starts to look rather foolish doesnt it?

Though I do think it raises an interesting point around the development of players.

Just how much credit does Poch get? How would those players have developed otherwise?

Of course its a whole bag of unknowns, but I would suggest when looking at SCBC, the players that left there, and players we have sold - basically none have looked as good when not in Pochs system.

Is Poch a great coach and developer of players? Or does he have an incredibly effective system that makes them all look that much better when part of the whole?

Its not likely to be a discussion for this thread, but my suspicion is the latter, rather than former.

Which is not to try and denigrate Poch, rather to say I question his "developing players" credentials, and applaud the way he sets teams up.

So let me get this right. You are saying that the players at both Southampton and Spurs didn't actually turn out to be that great when they left Southampton and Spurs and you suspect that they looked good because Pochettino has an incredibly effective system. Does that not tell you that Pochettino must therefore be a very good manager? Isn't that what every manager strives for? A team to be better than the sum of their parts?

I agree that Daniel Levy has been a very good chairman for this club. However it is 18 years since he came into Spurs. Levy has gone through 10 managers in that time. Only one of those managers has achieved even back to back Champions League finishes.

I think Levy has done fantastically well to grown our club and he will eventually leave it in a far better place than it was when he took it over. However I think Pochettino has played an at least equal part in us changing from a top 6 club into a top 4 club. As I have said before I think he deserves a chance to turn around our current under-performance before we turn to somebody else and ask them to attempt to get our club to continue to consistently punch above its weight.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Eriksen is playing like an utter turd, and Lamela and Alli are watching from the bench.

Forgive me for thinking we actually have alternatives that would be doing a better job not being utilised.

We have more than 11 good players, it doesnt make sense to me that people think we need to buy before we can be playing better.

Dele is also playing poorly at the moment. Lamela seemed to have got his place in the team back but was then out injured for the Liverpool game.

Let's see who plays against Everton this weekend (I'm assuming Lamela is fit again now - big assumption I know!)

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So just to get this clear, you really do think it is mere coincidence that the clubs at the top of their leagues around Europe are those that spend the most on transfers and wages in their league?

If this argument falls down completely then where are all of these other clubs, equally or more budget constrained that we have been, who have been able to balance against the budget disparity as well as we have?

If having a bigger budget is completely irrelevant as you say it is, then why on earth has Levy embarked on such a risky and disruptive activity of building a new stadium, making us homeless in the interim when our squad was perhaps at its very peak for success? Why do we bother putting a sponsor's name on the front of our shirts (especially as they look so much nicer without)? Why do we bother going thousands of miles around the globe to play pre-season friendlies? Surely all of this is pointless as there are these magic ways to balance against the budget disparity that only Tottenham Hotspur has the magic formula for?

I feel like you are being deliberately quite difficult here, but perhaps Im just not explaining myself properly.

I have already stated the richest clubs buy the best/finished article players, and thats how they operate. Unless you are just skimming the post and missing that point, I think you should accept I am agreeing with you that traditionally the biggest banks end up in the better positions and with most success.

There is no denial of this.

The point I have made, is that we have operated in such a way as to mitigate that issue. Our MO explicitly recognises the issues presented by richer clubs, and finds its own solution to leveling the playing field.

Would you agree?

And if so - if we operate in a way to deliberately negate higher budgets - can you see that your insistence on our budget is essentially an irrelevance?

If all things were equal, everyone operated the same way, and budgets were the only variable - then yes you would be onto something. My view is that that is not the case, and as compelling as you think the numbers are - they miss the point.

Levy has embarked on what he has to increase our earning/spending potential, as you well know. Though Im not sure what you think it proves. Why wouldnt we want to grow our potential as a club and close the gap financially? Surely its more of an advantage to add to what we already do.

Nobody ever said the way we have worked to date was the only way we should. I think its pretty obvious its what we needed to do to compete given our resource - why on earth could we not simultaneously also want to increase our resource?

Sorry - I wasn't aware that we had qualified for the CL in those two seasons before Poch arrived.... To be fair I did sleep through a lot of AVB's time at the club so maybe I simply missed it?

I agree that half of the players that ended up becoming our best players were here when Pochettino arrived. However those players certainly were not (with the probable exception of Vertonghen) before Pochettino arrived. Do you feel that those players were were already considered to be top class players?

Equally if you feel that Pochettino doesn't deserve any credit for developing those players, then can I assume that you feel it doesn't really doesn't matter who manages our club?

AVBs second season/the Timmeh fiasco was probably the lowest point in the last 10 years.
AVBs first season missed 4th by a point, on the final day. Was very close the CL.
Redknapp also got us 4th twice, you failed to note. In more competitive premier league seasons, IMO. And depending on your view, maybe a worse squad too.

So its not like Poch getting us to the CL is anything new. It actually took Poch until his third attempt to exceed what Redknapp did in his first (second to match it) in the CL.

The players? I think for the most part they were on their way to being top players. I cant think of any immediately coming to mind as having developed in excess of what I thought they would. I dont think we can actually quantify just what impact Poch did/didnt have. Which is exactly why I raised the point, people just speaking as if truth these players were developed into what they are by Poch - as if they wouldnt have been as good without him. I really dont think we can treat that as a truth.

I do think it matters who manages the club, of course I do. Mostly because I dont boil the job down to "developing players" and thats it. And while thats where youve tried to box me in, I doubt you actually believe that either.

Awesome. You agree that it's not easy to do what we have done. We're getting somewhere.

What Leicester did was amazing. All credit to them. That was a fairytale season. The fact that they were a 5,000 to 1 shot though shows just how difficult and unexpected doing this is. The fact that they then dropped out of the top 4 for the next few seasons that immediately followed also showed how hard it is to sustain a place punching above your weight.

Liverpool did fantastically well to reach the CL final last year. I'm not sure where their £150 million spending and £240 million wage bill has them in European terms - I would imagine top 5 and top 8? That team they overcame in the final to win it also did really well to usurp all those other richer clubs right?

I have never, not once, claimed what we have done has been easy. Yet another part, of yet another post, that has me wondering if you even read what I write before replying.

Leicester disprove your point that budgets are the be all end all.
The prove mine that a long term strategy pays.

I forgot to mention us in that final, it occurred to me afterwards. So 2 of the not at the top teams made the final. What excuse those richer ones with all their money?

And I thought it interesting - Liverpools wage bill is of course very high and they pay too much imo. Actually their net transfer spend is, I believe, less than you might expect. Its a little disingenuous to claom their £150m of spending, without mentioning their sales, wouldnt you say? Unless thats net?

And then you have to ask - why didnt they spend anything this summer? Is it because they dont actually have as much to spend as people think? Because they already blew their budget?

Ill never deny Liverpool are a massive club, on and off the field, but Im not sure they really count as a genuine big spender. They have more in common with us than the biggest fish, IMO.

So let me get this right. You are saying that the players at both Southampton and Spurs didn't actually turn out to be that great when they left Southampton and Spurs and you suspect that they looked good because Pochettino has an incredibly effective system. Does that not tell you that Pochettino must therefore be a very good manager? Isn't that what every manager strives for? A team to be better than the sum of their parts?

I agree that Daniel Levy has been a very good chairman for this club. However it is 18 years since he came into Spurs. Levy has made 10 managerial appointments in that time. Only one of those managers has achieved even back to back Champions League finishes.

I think Levy has done fantastically well to grown our club and he will eventually leave it in a far better place than it was when he took it over. However I think Pochettino has played an at least equal part in us changing from a top 6 club into a top 4 club. As I have said before I think he deserves a chance to turn around our current under-performance before we turn to somebody else and ask them to attempt to get our club to continue to consistently punch above its weight.

Pochettino is a very good manager. Again, not something I have ever denied. In fact, until this season - if you were at all paying attention - you would note that I have been a huge advocate and defender of him.

So what exactly is your point?

Levy has been up and down. In saying he was the most important part of our development, I am not saying he is perfect and has never made mistakes. However, you do him a compete and absolute disservice in even trying to compare Pochettinos impact to his.

In those 18 years Spurs have gone in only one direction. Pochettino (a Levy decision) has played a big part in it, but IMHO - if Poch left tonight - we will still continue on that trajectory in the coming years. Because Levy is at the helm.

Does Poch deserve a chance? As much as we can afford, yes - but it needs to be based not on sentiment or prior achievement but of signs of recovery NOW. IMO.

It is clear some are too emotional about it and their love and affection for Poch leads to their view.
It is clear some think that because he WAS good, he WILL BE good at some (unspecified) point in the future.
Both of these types of people have, I feel, found a huge array of reasons to justify that stance.

For me, all I want is to see Poch getting back to the good stuff he did before. I think he is underperforming massively. And I mean HE. I think many of the issues/constraints/things going on around the team and club (that people use to excuse him) are well within his power to put right or over come. And Im not seeing him do it.

And THAT is my sole issue here. Im not anti Poch. Im not blind to his successes. Im not blind to his good work. In fact Im all to aware of it - I want him to get back to that.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Dele is also playing poorly at the moment. Lamela seemed to have got his place in the team back but was then out injured for the Liverpool game.

Let's see who plays against Everton this weekend (I'm assuming Lamela is fit again now - big assumption I know!)

Dele is hit and miss. Eriksen is miss and miss.

In the situation that neither are particularly performing, what is the choice? For me its simple, think of the squad, the message, show some managerial chops.

In playing Eriksen, what does that say to Alli/Lamela on the bench? I think its an extremely negative message.

In dropping Eriksen (and personally Id drop him right out of the club) what message does that send?
"Hey, I believe you are the future of this team, I have faith in you, and Im going to help you get back to your best"

In a case of "neither player is performing" - which outcome do you think shows the better degree of management?

Everton should be interesting. In a very similar situation than us - though from the little Ive seen they look more like recovering than they did a while ago. They have talented players, and look to be a team that deserves respect.

We havent won away since Noah was loading the ark. We played very well against RSB when reverting to a more comfortable formation and actually going on the front foot. Will Poch be brave(tm) and go with what suits us? Or will he go more like Liverpool and try and play safe?

I think its yet another game where the early goal counts. If we get it, Everton will likely fold, they could be fragile. Equally, the same could be said of us.

What do I want? I really want is to see an identity to the team. Set up, focused, has a plan. I want to see us looking like our old selves, like we did against RSB. Obviously a result would be the icing on the cake, but its not the most important thing for me at all. I want to see signs Poch has got his mojo back, has clarity, and is actively managing the side.